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Old 01-18-2007, 04:48 AM   #181
acecycleins
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

With the info you provided and the post from some of our out of country MOrons. You have demonstrated the need for tiering. It shouldn't be as easy as it is to obtain a license. Training is needed but demand for school is not nearly as high as it should be. One of the things this shop does is ask the customer if they have ANY experience. If no, then every one of them get a MSF card. At least we know we have tried to influence the rider that training is paramount. Now it's up to them. Well, if the training or teiring were mandatory then one BIG problem is solved. The only way to change it is to start the dreaded "grass roots movement" and let the riders help decide if it's time for changes in licensing. According to the Poll it looks like most are in line with the tier or training ideas.
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Old 01-18-2007, 05:32 AM   #182
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Isn't there always some idiot who thinks that his insurance premiums or taxes will go down if you get helmet laws? ROTFLMAO!



Yeah, and the States's tobacco settlement money was going to be spent on healthcare! DoubleROTFLMAO!



PT Barnum had it pegged, eh?
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Old 01-18-2007, 05:46 AM   #183
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Okay, but let's discuss possible scenarios in which the GSXR hits the roof of a house, or multiple houses, at 150. Given a choice, I'll happily take the hit from the 750lb bike & rider rather than, say, a 2700lb Cirrus SR-20...



Not saying that pilot licensing isn't a good place to look for ideas on rider training; just saying that the kinetic energy is an order of magnitude higher, and the damage therefore is likely to be far more severe than that from Squidley's escapades. I really don't see the comparison as useful.
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:07 AM   #184
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Rates in "no helmet law" states are higher than in mandatory helmet states. I know- remember> the resident insurance guy.

BTW- Rates don't go down. They adjust based on claims but for the most part every 18 mos to 3 yrs every insurance company raise rates for everyone insured. It's all a matter of who's going to get into your pockets the least.
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:23 AM   #185
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Right, let's raise the barriers so the tiny 3% or so of the US population that rides can be reduced to an even less significant percentage of the voting public politically.



And don't forget that the cost of motorcycles will rise as a result because sales will be reduced. Model lines will be consolidated, and motorcycle shops will go out of business. So much for that insurance saving you were hoping to pocket.



And because the only way to make motorcycle riding completely safe is to require airbags, seatbelts, protective cages, and stabilization to prevent rollovers, we'll end up with Honda Civics.



The US is not Japan or Europe. Bikes are toys here, not transportation like they are overseas. It's an interesting idea to kick around, but I just don't see that surrending on this issue will keep the reactionary elements of the public from coming back and demanding yet more concessions with insipid cries of, "But what about the children?"
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:30 AM   #186
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:58 AM   #187
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Grim look... I've been involved in the motorcycle business in one way or the other for 25 yrs now and can tell you that you're off the mark on your staements.

We only see a small segment of available motorcycles made in this world. If tiering or mandatory training were in force the manufacturers would bring in a whole lot of motorcycles that were deemed un-sellable for the US marketplace. There are dozens of low cc bikes available throughout the world and the only reason they never make it here is because manufacturers don't see a market. All because there are NO tiering or training regs in the US.

Changing the procedures for licensing would only shift the bike industry. Not cripple it. After a 18mo to 24 mo adjustment the market would rebound and new models would be introduced into the American motorcycle market. These bikes meet tough EU emmissions standards and will meet EPA standards, as well.

Your statement about transportation vs toys is only somewhat true. Today, there are tens of thousands of riders that enter the market every year that rely on motorcycles as their primary transportaion. Once again, a shift is happening in the market. We are moving (albeit slowly) in the direction of mainstream vehicle transportation with motorcycles. How long before it's significant? My guess is we're still about a decade away from real acceptance of this fact, but it is coming, none the less.

As far as letting motorcyclist decide. We all register our bikes. The states can poll us by registration records to get opinions- it's possible.
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:07 AM   #188
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

My eyes are going all blurry on me from reading all of these posts. I rode dirt bikes as a kid, started on a Yamaha 50 and moved up to a 125 when I was big enough to handle it, but stopped riding at about age 12. Now, at 34 I am back at it again. I donÂ’t consider myself an experienced rider by any stretch, but I know that I did not want a cruiser or strait tourer, so that left the sport bike class to choose through. I sat on several of the 600Â’s and they all felt crampt for my 6Â’1 245 LB frame. Given that I could not afford a new bike I chose a 93 Honda CBR 1000 F. Great fit, plenty of power and full-sized second seat in case my wife wants to go on some short trips.



Having said all of that, the prospect of having to ride on a 250 or similar bike for however long it was mandated via tiered licensing would probably have kept from getting back on. Knowing my lack of experience was an issue that needed help, I followed what seemed to be the right course: take BRC, get endorsement, buy bike, register, practice in neighborhood, stick to side streets, move up to highway. I have been riding for about 7 months and have put almost 4500 miles on it with out any problems. There have been close calls, but they were all avoidable by paying attention and not panicking.



I say all this to make a point that I have not seen so far, if tiered licensing is put into action and there is a waiting period for moving up into the next size (HP, CCÂ’s, weight, whatever) is there enough bikes out there to supply the demand. And how much more is this going to cost me to buy a new ride every time that I want to move up the scale? If I have to start out on a 250cc then sell that and buy a 600cc then sell that and then I can finally buy the 1000 that I wanted from the start. That doesnÂ’t even take into account the ability to find what I want and sell mine.



If people are not getting their endorsements now, how does anyone believe that if you make a class/ size restrictions on top of that, people are going to line up at their local DMV? They will just bypass this the way they do know.



On a final note, I donÂ’t feel that the MSF, AMA, etc. are going to be in favor of this either, based on my argument above. The more restrictions you put in place the more people are not going to get back on.

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Old 01-18-2007, 08:20 AM   #189
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

How ‘bout we do this: Everybody that thinks the tiered licensing thing is good, do it! Get yourself a copy of the Japanese or EU law on this topic and subject yourself to every requirement. Displacement/HP restrictions, experience requirements, rider training, critical evaluation, protective equipment, the whole works! Then tell the rest of us how you like it!



IÂ’m thinking that thereÂ’s no way a certain Ninja racer-boy wannabe would ever voluntarily subject himself to all seven of the fruity requirements he proposes for others.



Ok, "we need more laws" crowd, who's gonna' be the first to step up to the plate? Remermber, if it only saves one life......
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:23 AM   #190
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Flick, you might want all of Michigan, or at least Macomb County, on your side when you try to weasle out of "having sexual relations with that woman".



In Macomb County (I'm fairly certain that this is the case in all of Michigan, but can't say it is a fact... so I won't) The Motor Cycle Safety Program is subsidized by the State... Well, actually the Secretary of State (Our version of the DMV).



There are three levels... The Basic Course for which you only need equipment (they provide the bike) and when you pass, you get your endorsement. The Performance Based course (need your own bike w/ registration & proof of insurance) which builds on the Basic Course. Finally, the Experienced Rider Course (need you own bike and proofs also).



All three course are only $25 each... so, the state doesn't quite pick up the tab, but hey, for $25 you can't go wrong.



I take it this is not the case in most states? I'm curious, what do these courses run in other states?



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