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Old 01-17-2007, 09:41 PM   #171
cda
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

longride,



OK, since you asked. I was looking for a Harley Davidson sportbike and stumbled on this site...



Best,

cda
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Old 01-17-2007, 10:02 PM   #172
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Default Re: Excellent Counterpoint. (WA state data)

ksquid,



Your suggestions seem Draconian to me but it appears you are serious and well meaning.

Thanks for the comments on my counter-points. I addressed the MRSTF final report in the feedback for Gabe's Power to Wait Feedback. (If you already saw it I apologize in advance.)



Not sure how to link to it. But here is what I posted on Thursday, January 04 2007 @ 21:30:15 PST...

Subject: Tiered License Won't Save Many in Washington

--

Gabe, thanks for an interesting topic



According to the report:

"One-third of fatalities from 1993 to 2004 ... did not have a valid motorcycle endorsement." 43% of the fatalities from 1993-2002 had alcohol listed as a contributing factor.

Let's see...

33% non-valid endorsement

43% alcohol contributing

If both completely overlap you have 43% total. If there is no overlap between the two statistics you have a total of 76%. I could not find the real number in the report but neither 43% nor 76% total seems likely for the two combined factors. Taking the average we end up with 59.5% which is merely a guess but within the range of the 43%-76% explained. That would imply that it is completely possible that almost 60% of the fatalities in the Washington study were likely violating the laws by the mere act of riding. From that it might be concluded that a mandatory tiered license program would have almost zero mortality effect on that 60% (actually 43%-76% from the report) of dead lawbreakers who seem to ignore things like laws (including tier licensing laws). I think we can safely assume that the remaining non-lawbreaking 40% (24%-57% from the report) likely had some mix other driver/animal/debris at fault.

It appears likely that tiered licensing would seem to have NO impact on the majority of the rider fatalities in Washington.



Speaking of statistics... If a state implements a mandatory helmet law and miles ridden drops to 50% but fatalities are down a whopping 25% other than "those that would like to see murdercycles banned even if it would just save one life" who would think that motorcycle safety has improved when fatalities are actually up 50% per mile ridden! Without accurate per mile ridden data what does a post-mandatory helmet law reduction in fatalities mean??? For motorcycle "safety improvements" statistics to be valid I am at a loss how per mile ridden can be left out.



Comparing minimally trained US riders to highly trained riders that just happen to live within a tiered license jurisdiction is not proof that tiered licensing works.



Banning is the only way to slow down stupid people trying to kill themselves. They will still succeed but you will have destroyed a very enjoyable activity in a failed attempt to save a few of the stupid from themselves.



For an 18 year old with clean record and a 1 year motorcycle endorsement getting Hayabusa insurance should be cost prohibitive but it isn't. $2645/yr (1st quote I found - shop around kid and maybe get a better deal) for a 1999 'Busa in my jurisdiction. Insurance companies are not rational. And if you believe your insurance rate will go down after tiered license laws are passed I have some Florida swamp land to sell you too.



Significant increases in training with appropriate price reductions in insurance to encourage training and reduce claims seems like a whole lot more bang for your buck than an expensive intrusive limited value tiered license system. Of course if you goal was to reduce the number of miles ridden and riders on the road you might have a good start with a tier license system.



Oh and of course extensive training for the cagers would save countless pedestrians, bicyclists, and motorcyclists. Tell them you will raise their test requirements and fees and see how long you keep your job as a politician.



But seriously in Washington in 2004 (52) FIFTY-TWO people died unintentionally or by accident in the "All Transport" (which includes motorcycles) category named "unspecified". HELLO can we put a stop to the aliens just zapping people dead from their outpost in outer space (or whatever it is that is causing them "unspecifieds" to die). Unspecified deaths are real people too!

--

An update I added was:

Subject: $2645/yr quote was FULL coverage

The $2645/yr quote mentioned for the 18 year old with 1 year under his belt was FULL coverage. Minimum insurance for his Busa would be $525 for 1 year or $41.57 monthly.
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:26 AM   #173
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

An excellent point was made by one poster: How many riders are unlicensed and what percentage of the accident statistics are they? In this case, a helmet law is the better approach because an unlicensed rider doesn't want to be stopped and checked. One point that no proponents of tiered licensing have addressed is after the first step (probably the basic MSF course), what further training would be taught by whom? If you think that the state will provide the funds to advance motorcyclists to bigger, faster bikes, I want you in my corner when I state, "I didn't have sex with that woman." We don't constitute enough voters to have the states spend much money on us. Even if we could establish that tiered licensing will work (NOT proven so far), the cost could be so prohibitive that many couldn't afford it. If so, it could be construed as another way to deprive us of our rights. There sure aren't any heap and/or easy solutions to this issue, especially considering the proven percentage of stupid thought processes and actions of the motorcycle riding public.

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Old 01-18-2007, 01:29 AM   #174
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Waaaay too early for me. Above: "heap" = "cheap." Sorry.....
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Old 01-18-2007, 02:36 AM   #175
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

The cool part about this whole discussion is that this is really a West Coast thing. They tried helmet laws, and by all the crying and moaning about insurance and deaths and the sky falling, they obviously didn't work as planned, so now they need to implement what should have been done in the first place: better training and tougher license tests. The REALLY cool part is that in Illinois, we never had a helmet law EVER, nobody brings the subject up, and nobody is wringing their hands at how we will stop whatever imagined carnage is happening. I don't have to wear a helmet, I have a lecense for life, my insurance rates, even for my Hayabusa is practically nothing, and if I buy a used bike(which I do ofter) I have to pay a whole 25 bucks tax on it. Keep all this stuff on the West Coast where it belongs. I'm sure all of you out there will solve all your 'problems' real soon......or the Gov will doit for ya!
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:24 AM   #176
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counter Counterpoint

probably depends on type of bike as well as weight. A 375 lb sportbike might be a lot less controllable for a beginner than a little 400 lb cruiser (some of the 250s are that light). Handlebar placement is part of it too. A yamaha 225 dual purpose might be the best beginner bike of all: light, low-enough seat height, high handlebars, modest power. And you could keep it once you upgrade, as it might end up being the bike you have the most fun on. Girl bike though, they say. I say BS.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:35 AM   #177
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

As a recent grad of the BRC (2005) and ERC (2006). I'd have to say the MSF courses in no way fully prepare someone to become a rider. I took the BRC with 12 other people and all but three of us passed. One of the people who failed was a guy in his mid-twenties who attended the classes completely decked out from head to toe in HD gear. He was using the largest bike available at the training course, a Honda Rebel, and he could not control that bike. He deserved to fail but was allowed to keep his learners permit and had every intention of riding to Laconia that summer on his brand new Harley Road King.



I was allowed to take the ERC, a new rider, with barely 500 miles under my belt. I was told at registration that the ERC was a "catch bin" for the people who had failed the BRC. It is a second chance at the test without having to take the basic course again. I was taking it as a confidence builder after a very scary accident I had the prior year that almost kept me off motorcycles forever.



The bike I had that accident on was a SV650, not a very good bike for an old fart (53) like me to have as a first bike. The bike was fine as long as I was moving but every time I stopped the bike would head for the pavement. The last time that happened was in front of an oncoming car.



I agree with Fred Rau, a tiered system is the only way to go. I should have started on a smaller bike to get used to riding. Like him if my insurance were to go up to $3000 a year I'd have to sell the bike but if that happened who the hell would be left to buy it.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:52 AM   #178
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Default Re: One other simple thing: Actually REQUIRE a liscence...

I think a lot of states do a pretty good job of this right now. I know they get medieval at the DMV here in VA if you cancel your insurance. That is, if the conversations I've heard while waiting in line are any indication. Riding/driving without insurance is considered Reckless Driving around here (but, then again, what isn't?).
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:54 AM   #179
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

"GAO found twenty studies that compared motorcycle rider fatality rates under universal helmet laws with rates during periods before enactment or after repeal of these laws.



"These studies consistently showed that fatality rates were lower when universal helmet laws were in effect; most rates ranged from 20 to 40 percent lower. Several of these studies compared periods before a helmet law was enacted, while it was in effect, and after it was repealed. They showed that the decreases in fatality rates when laws were enacted were matched by comparable increases when the laws were repealed" (GAO, 1991, p. 4)].



GAO found thirteen studies with data on some aspect of the societal costs of motorcycle accidents.



"These studies indicated that nonhelmeted riders were more likely to (1) need ambulance service, (2) be admitted to a hospital as an inpatient, (3) have higher hospital charges, (4) need neurosurgery and intensive care, (5) need rehabilitation, and (6) be permanently impaired and need long-term care" (GAO, 1991, p. 4)."

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Old 01-18-2007, 03:59 AM   #180
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Actually reenacting helmet laws did work reducing fatalities and severity of injuries by at least 20% see my posts elsewhere. Just think how much lower Illinois insurance rates and fatalities could be.
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