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Old 01-17-2007, 12:10 PM   #131
Dangerousdave_2
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

I learned on a 200, and it took a bit of finesse to get the thing launched. It was probably a good thing to get that 'touch' before, years later, I found myself on bikes that were quite capable of hurting you if you got too cavalier with the throttle.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:15 PM   #132
salguire
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Current rider training is insufficient. I know. I have to watch these people week after week come to my class with no clue how to drive there car correctly, let alone handle a motorcycle. Everything from the snot nosed kids thinking they are invincible, to 30 something moms who's husbands bought them a bike, to the crustly old biker that finally wants to get his license show up and 15 hours later can have a license to operate a vehicle capable of killing them. We can't tell them to leave unless they are a threat to someone else. We can't fail them unless they can't meet the basic criteria of a test that the Director of MSF, Dr. Ray Ochs, has stated that points MAY BE not will beassessed. You can make mistakes and points MAY BE assessed? The test has so much grey area in the scoring that an instructor can pass the entire class as long as no one drops a bike during the test. You don't have to perform the u-turn, just ride something close and keep your feet on the pegs and you will only get 5 points. The 15 mile an hour swerve can be done with hardly even seeing the bike lean. The quick stop, 12-18 mph, as long as you don't antisipate the stop or forget to down shift you can skate through with a few points for exceding the distance but only a max of 10 for stopping that monster of a 125 before you ride off into the sunset. And the corner can be done at a snails pace, crawling between the lines and cones and get 5 point for going too slow. Just about anybody can squeek by the test if they can stay calm and ride between 10 and 15 mph the entire class. So now you are fully qualified to buy an R1 that can out accelerate everything on the earth but a Top Fuel dragster. I have had too many people slide by in the class only to see them weeks later in the bike shop with a brand new bike in pieces. Even the ones I fail can still find someone with lower standard and pass. If we fail people we get questions about what we are doing? When I got into this game I was impressed by the people I get to work with. I have meet people that have scars from motorcyles older than I am. I even had Fred Rau in one of my classes. I have listened to them all. I have learned much from those who came before me and I have passed it on to those who follow. I felt a duty to the community to improve the riders out there on the road. Now I am starting to see why the MSF has been refered to as the Motorcycle Sales Foundation.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:19 PM   #133
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

One more outburst of logic and steps will be taken to restrict your access. We don't need your kind around here...
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:22 PM   #134
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

It's probably the prestige.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:29 PM   #135
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Default Re: Drivers the issue

Lack of driving skills kills 55 times more people than war in the US. Whassup with that?!?

(Yes I know more people use the US roads than are fighting in Iraq but the traffic deaths are huge and Tiered Licensing for motorcyclists won't put a dent in the loss of life. It might be of value to focus where the most harm is done.)




I might add; The Jihadis WANT to kill as many US Troops as possible - I'd say that (other than a miniscule amount of Isolated Cases) NONE of the people having crashes actually want to kill someone else. It is just Ignorance (definitively, not in a derogatory-sense).



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Old 01-17-2007, 12:44 PM   #136
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Fred mentions the 'natural progression' of riders as they acquire more powerful machines. We may have been a unique generation in that we (older boomers) came to motorcycling when the Japanese were getting their foot in the door with smaller, less intimidating machines. They were much cheaper than American and European machines, and were the perfect opening wedge to get into the market, both for the Japanese manufacturers and for us, who were still figuring out what kind of riders we were. It's all different now, because all manufacturers build some variant of what used to be called Superbikes--bikes with way more power and performance than anybody needs, but a lot of us want. I think a restricted license for a year or so, when most people start thinking they know what's up, could work the same way it does for cars now. My Grandson can't drive without someone over 21 riding with him ( I think just at night, but I could be wrong)

And, finally, at the other end of many years of riding, less performance seems quite acceptable again, because you know you won't use 150+ hp on public roads, and you get tired of replacing a tire every 3000 miles. It gets tiresome, dealing with the consequences, real, and potential, of all that power.
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Old 01-17-2007, 12:51 PM   #137
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Yeah, none of my kids expressed an interest in riding untill recently. He's 30, and has good sense, but I find myself not doing much to encourage him, beyond suggesting an EX500 or SV650, because he has a long commute. The sport I love is more dangerous than staying on the sidewalk, no question about it, and I don't know what I would do if he got himself killed or seriously injured. I guess it seems like teaching my kid to smoke.
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:19 PM   #138
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Default Don't make obeying the law prohibitively expensive

I personally support motorcycle training and would fully support mandatory federal or state training ... as long as the government agencies make it affordable. The intent must be to provide a necessary public service at a reasonable cost, not create a for-profit bureaucracy. Here in Illinois the MSF fee is $20 but I have heard of similar training costing hundreds of dollars in other states.

And, actually require riders to have a license:

http://news.motorcycle.com/article.m...id=4510#150903

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Old 01-17-2007, 01:46 PM   #139
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Default Re: Excellent Counterpoint.

When you find a motorcycling organization that would push for these common sense measures, let me know. It surely isn't the AMA, which lobbys heavily against any sort of regulation on bikes--which is the reason why I dropped my membership, despite all of the economic benefits associated with membership. The AMA is an extreme libertarian organization, even when that stance hurts cyclists. Just look what they've done working against helmet laws, and the skyrocketting death rates which followed in states that dropped the requirement.
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:57 PM   #140
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Default Re: One other simple thing: Actually REQUIRE a liscence...

And link state vehicle registration to insurance records as well. No ongoing proof of insurance, no ongoing registration. As it stands now, the policy expires with the first nonpayment of the premium but the license is still good. This could eliminate a lot of uninsured motorists tho' I'm not sure how you could enforce it effectively.
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