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Gordy 01-05-2007 05:38 AM

Re: Tiers of a Clown: Gabe Responds to ''Power to Wait'' Feedback
According to England's "Bike" magazine, the majority of their m'cycle deaths are single vehicle accidents on nice summer days on sportbikes. Good training, tiered license and all, what really kills them is the concept of road motorcycling as a "sport", or "finding the limit". If motorcyclists would obey the laws, as in speed limits, (not to mention alcohol) the single vehicle component would virtually disappear.

Of course, if you follow the speed limits there is no need for more than a 500 or any sportbike.

Fenton 01-05-2007 07:09 AM

Re: Tiers of a Clown: Gabe Responds to ''Power to Wait'' Feedback
I would love a copy of his resume including references. That thing would be hard bound and have footnotes.

Without KP this would be the 3 largest online MO site.

The_AirHawk 01-05-2007 08:16 AM

Re: Tiers of a Clown: Gabe Responds to ''Power to Wait'' Feedback
Finally, I have seen at least one photo of a newbie rider killing himself and two car occupants when he hit them side on at 200kph or thereabouts. So "largely victimless", it is a bit selfish IMHO.

I've seen two incidences of this on the Internet. However, I have PERSONALLY Witnessed 1 fatal and 1 serious "broadside" accidents involving cages, and have completely lost track of how many aftermaths of the same type that I've seen.

How many others out there have seen similar crashes or post-crash scenes involving autos?

Those rider-caused multiple fatalities are the exceptions that prove the rule.

staff 01-05-2007 09:55 AM

There IS a lack of data!
Insurance company data is mostly based on paying claims. It is not based on what caused the claim. Just because a 17-year old crashes a GSXR1000 doesn't mean he wouldn't have crashed a GSXR-750, GSXR-600 or GS500F. Different rates mostly just reflect the replacement cost of the bike. Your rates are low because you are a low risk. File three claims in a year and see how low your rates are. If you don't believe me, look up liability rates for an 18 yo male rider on a 1000, 600 and 250.

Nobody really knows what will happen to crash rates if there's tired licensing. You don't, I don't and nobody else does. But we do know what will happen when rider education improves and is more universal; there will be fewer crashes and fewer fatalities.

And my point is this: stressing tiered licensing more than mandatory training does a far greater disservice.

An R6 is just as dangerous as an R1 in the hands of an untrained rider. And an SV650 isn't far behind. On my daily walk yesterday I saw a guy pushing his ZR-7S -- complete with dealer plate -- along the path. The footpeg was sheared off and there were scratches on the side.

Maybe if the salesman had sold him the ZX-10R the kid would have died. But why are we selling anybody a bike when they can't ride? Most fatal crashes occur at speeds well under 100 mph.

You took what I wrote -- "buy what you want," -- out of context to make the point that I am some reckless nut telling teenagers to buy GSXR-1000s without any skills or training. That's just wrong. I never said that, I never advocated it, and when customers wanted to buy bikes from me I ALWAYS told them they should take the MSF course (or better yet, real training from a friend of mine who teaches on-road skills via radio headsets) BEFORE they buy, and they should start on smaller, less-powerful bikes. I actually moved bike-shoppers to scooters.

Just to be clear, here is what I said:

"As for the rest of us, once we're properly trained -- and can show someone who knows how to ride that he or she can handle a bike without crashing -- we should be able to purchase what we like."

That means a proper training course where an instructor watches the student handle his bike in real traffic and on real roads with actual curves. And it also means an evaluator at the DMV who knows how to ride and knows if somebody can actually handle a bike before he licenses him. If after that process somebody thinks they can handle a GSXR-1000...well, what can we do? If he thinks he can handle it he's going to buy one, no matter what the government tells him to do. In CA, the police don't even know what kind of license you need to ride a scooter under 150cc. Do you think they'll give two $hits about some bizarre tiered-licensing scheme? No.

Oh, but advocating tiered licensing for a guy like Francis gives him an out. "Until my scheme is legislated, enacted and enforced, motorcyclists will never be safe, so my work is done." Now you're free to snipe at people who are interested in slightly changing a system to produce acceptable results, even if it's not the Utopian goal you want.

I think advocating mandatory training rather than some pie-in-the-sky tiered licensing actually does the motorcycling community a great service, and if you can prove that anybody died because they bought too big a bike based on somebody's recommendation I will send you a MO t-shirt.

And one other thing; a proper training class can certainly prepare you to safely and legally operate a 150-hp sportbike. Can it keep you from behaving like an idiot? No. Can it train you how to use the thing at its upper limits of performance? Nope. But Vald with 32 years of experience can't use that performance, either, unless he's beating Schwantz at the track. So maybe he shouldn't be allowed to ride a GSXR-1000? Maybe nobody should? Maybe the government should step in and keep any bike with over 60hp from getting on the road? Do you see where I'm going with this?

Like I said originally; tiered licensing is an admission that motorcycles are dangerous instrumentalities that should be restricted from public roads. Let's keep from going down that road, especially if it will have limited effect on crash or fatality rates.


johnnyquest 01-05-2007 10:34 AM

Re: How about this for a thesis:
I aggree. I went from the buell blast in my training course to a bmw k75s...not a huge leap. But, less than a year later I rented a Harley Road King so I could go riding with family in Texas. I remembered my training and treated the thing like it was made out of glass, but I really had my hands full. Of course out on the road it was great, it was the slow parking lot maneuvers that freaked me out. I couldn't imagine going through training on a tiny bike and the next day trying to negotiate traffic on a Road King. I guess people do it all the time, but I doubt they have enough control of the bike to do an emergency lane change or quick stop.


anrajala 01-05-2007 12:12 PM

Government education fails, or does it
Maybe you should check out Finland. All govt schools and ranked no.1 in education in the world for several years running.

And how about the flip side of the coin. Are you suggesting all private? Like no schooling if you can't pay? Leaving aside the ethical question that would not be very efficient way of building a nation.

- cruiz-euro

Dangerousdave_2 01-05-2007 06:44 PM

Re: Tiers of a Clown: Gabe Responds to ''Power to Wait'' Feedback
Kinda sucks the joy out of it, doesn't it?

jbourne 01-05-2007 07:14 PM

Re: Tiers of a Clown: Gabe Responds to ''Power to Wait'' Feedback
Hell, if I followed the speed limits around here, I'd be run over by a cohort of lane swapping, teetering black SUVs:-D

dorkboy 01-05-2007 08:37 PM

Re: Is there a lack of data?
HELLO! You think one can be prevented from killing oneself, whether by motorcycle or otherwise? You have obiously not been paying attention.

svtech 01-05-2007 10:22 PM

Re: Tiers of a Clown: Gabe Responds to ''Power to Wait'' Feedback
Last bike vs cage broadside that I have PERSONAL knowledge of was a number of years ago. The automobile driver said, "I didn't see him". The M-C rider suffered two broken legs and was castrated. The helmet probably saved his life. Now, ain't that nice!

The local newspaper rag around here mentions M-C crashes a couple of times a month. I don't recall ever seeing anything about injuries or fatalities to the occupants of the "other" vehicle. I'm betting that it would be big news if or when it happens.

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