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Old 01-03-2007, 05:50 PM   #21
NLJ
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Default Re: Power to Wait

While i do believe a tiered system would have it's benefits, i believe those of us who support the concept are looking at it the wrong way. In Australia, for example, the restriction system doesn't limit displacement specifically. It limits power. Like Gabe mentioned, our idea of an ideal power to weight ratio has changed dramatically. Lower displacement bikes typically mean less power. You can purchase middle weight bikes that have been restricted through carb modifications. One particular model is the Hyosung GT-650 L (L being the designation for Learners model). The beauty of this is that the new owner can meet the requirements of lower power ride, and then when they step up they can modify it to full power for a nominal fee.



A 250cc Ninja will do 100+mph, it just won't get there as fast or easily. It will require half a dozen shifts unlike the zx14 which takes, what? one shift.



I can't count all the newbie rider GI's i know who return from a deployment and buy a litre sport bike and total it within a few months. Maybe if they had to buy a restricted version the bike would last longer and the motorcyclist would become a life long rider. WHo knows...



Just my 2cents.
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Old 01-03-2007, 05:59 PM   #22
mmarlo
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Default Re: Power to Wait

It is illogical to argue against a tiered system where a motorcyclist must gain experience with lower power vehicles before going on to more horse power and at the same time argue that the problem is people on bikes with no formal training. The purpose of the regulation is to get the rider more experience and skills. The purpose of training is to get the rider more experience and skills. While it is true that a well thought out required training program would be optimal, lacking that isn't it a good idea to give folks a chance to learn on vehicles that are less likely to kill them. Yes, yes, a 250 can kill you just as dead as a 1000 (especially with the help of alcohol or a careless motorist) but does anyone really think that a GSX-R 1000 is safer than a 250 nightwing?
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: Power to Wait

Hey Gabe, I'm smelling what your cooking.

However, you wouldn't catch me drinking and riding a 250 when I could drive a 300 horse Mustang GT.

If you take a moment to assume the young (sport) and old (cruiser) riders are living out some image, how many of them are on bikes for the wrong reason to begin with? I'd bet half the posers wouldn't be caught dead on a "chick" bike. That would leave the other half that believes the sport of motorcycle riding is a worthwhile pursuit.



And to contradict myself, buy the bike you want.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Power to Wait

When did the "respectfully" crap start?



I've been gone for a day, knock it off.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: Power to Wait

It's 2007.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Power to Wait

In years past- "waiting" was an economic reality. Who could afford to buy or borrow $12,000 to $25,000 on the latest superbike? You started out on whatever you could afford- a borrowed mo-ped, a clapped out cushman or a Honda 125. THEN you managed to move up to a Dream 305 after a year or two.



Today's instant-gratification world demands the privilege of wanting all of it- NOW!



If the "it's not the horsepower but the operator" theory were true, the US Air Force would start out rookie pilot trainees in F-15's. The thought of pilots starting out in Mach 3 fighters is as ridiculous as the idea of a 16-year-old, (or a 46-year-old beginning biker) starting out with a Ducati 1098 or a GSXR.



Why do you think pilot licensing requires you to move up, demonstrate your capability, receive certification and further instruction before you can move up to IFR, twin-engine, jet fighter, etc.?



It's because too much hardware capabilities in inexperienced hands results in death- usually burned beyond recognition.



I'm all for placing horsepower/weight ratio limits on beginning riders and a scale of "earning" the right to pilot 2-wheel missiles capable of 175 miles per hour.



Beginning drivers don't hop into Formula 1 cars to learn to drive- and that's really what today's sportbikes amount to; street-legal race bikes not far removed from the mounts of Hayden and Rossi.



We've got a lifetime to enjoy riding a motorcycle- but statistics demonstrate that it won't be a very LONG lifetime if we start out with too much bike and too little experience.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:10 PM   #27
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Default Based on my experiences in a country with tiered licensing...

And watching other people (and myself) move up the various "classes" - from ~250, to ~600 to ~1000, I have found the biggest problem riders have when they "graduate" (including from "no bike" to "first bike") is throttle control (even a 250 is quick if you've never had a bike before). The amount of go you get from a sudden quarter throttle twist in first on a GSXR1000 is worlds away from the response you get on a 250 and nearly incomprehensible to someone who has never ridden a motorcycle before.


"Rider error" is a primary cause of motorcycle accidents. The reason a tiered licencing system helps is because a "rider error" like laying down the throttle too hard on a corner in a 250 is relatively simple to recover from with little danger, even to an inexperienced rider. On a 1000cc race replicar it's liable to put you straight into an oncoming car (or, worse, fellow rider), if not flying off the side of the road and down a cliff.


Tiered licencing systems based solely on engine capacity are less than ideal, and a *good* tiered licencing system uses the bike's power-to-weight ratio (ideally also accounting for rider weight, but that's difficult). Both help, because they reduce the amount of damage idiots and the inexperienced can do. No, they don't _stop_ people from hurting themselves (and others), but they do *substantially* reduce the probability of them doing so.


There is no real reason for customers to suffer in the face of it either, for example by being "forced" to "waste money" on [a] smaller bike(s) before being able to buy the bigger one they're going to keep for a while. As a concrete example, here in Australia (and in the EU as well I believe) Ducati sell a "lite" version of their Monster 620 with a throttle restrictor that makes it learner legal in some states. Once a rider has progressed to an unrestricted license, that throttle restrictor can be removed by the dealer, leaving them with a quite usable machine (unsurprisingly, these models have been very popular amongst new riders, despite their relatively high price - alas, they have been dicontinued in favour of a model that no longer meets the learner-legal definition). As electronic engine management systems continue to become more prevalent in bikes, temporarily restricting the power output of a motorcycle will become trivially simple. Governments intelligent enough to recognise this (stop laughing up the back) would institute generic power-to-weight defined licence classes, allowing motorcycle manufacturers to preconfigure their engines with suitable power settings for each licence class, making it cheaper, easier and safer for someone to start riding, since a single machine could take them all the way from wet behind the ears wobbler to monthly track day demon.


If you want to make motorcycling easier, cheaper, safer, more popular and more accessible, IMHO the only rational thing to do is to work towards a *good* tiered licencing system, because such a thing will benefit every single rider on the road.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: Power to Wait

Gabe stated the problem quite clearly.



We as individuals are not good at deciding what we should start out on. We try to run before we can crawl. This is why we should have mandatory MSF classes at the very least. Maybe even tiered licensing. If 20 year old Joe can't control his new bike then he should be forced to learn how the correct way with proper training.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:13 PM   #29
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Default Re: Power to Wait

Wow, I get it.

I'm only going to ride in the winter, at night, when its raining, to keep from dying.



But seriously folks, one-third of the fatalities were riding illegally? That begs the question, how many were citizens of the USA? Putting aside my illegal alien fears, how can you prevent someone from breaking the law? How many accidents occured on borrowed motorcycles? They never did tell us how many registered motorcycles there were and show that deaths increased more than registrations as a percentage.



I'm all for public PSA that warn people that motorcycles are fun but should be used cautiously.



Now, how many pedestrians were injured by motorcylists as compared to cage drivers?

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Old 01-03-2007, 06:14 PM   #30
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Default Re: Power to Wait

I agree....but, there seems to be a problem with the 62 hp cruisers as well.
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