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Old 01-05-2007, 07:11 PM   #261
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Default Re: Power to Wait

With respect to the health insurance requirement discussed above, how 'bout we let him/her die on the steps of the hospital if unable to pay the bill, thus relieving us all of the "burden." I'd be ok with that if it was me, or even my son.
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:31 PM   #262
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Default Re: Power to Wait

Um, I don't see any straw man argument there, perhaps you think it means something else.

My comment:
<blockquote> IMHO, the rationale behind tiered licensing is hard to disagree with in the real world.</blockquote>

Your response:
<blockquote>It's really, really easy to disagree with. The studies show that displacement has very little to do with fatality rates (have you read the Hurt report?).</blockquote>

That's a straw man. I'm talking about tiered licencing, you're refuting by saying displacement restrictions are misguided, a completely different argument (and one I agree with, anyway).

You're still not offering a single bit of data to support your assertion.

That's because I have better things to do with my time than spend hours on google for the sake of an internet forum, especially when such data is frequently only available for a fee. There are numerous countries in the world that have instituted tiered licensing systems of various complexities and granularities and reported on their effectiveness. I have read about the results of these reports, but for obvious reasons I don't take note of exactly where they are. I have yet to hear of it making motorcycling *more* dangerous.

Please, bring some data to the table rather than just passing off arguments against your opinion as paranoia.

The only "arguments" against tiered licencing seem to be along the lines of "OMG ! They're going to ban motorcycling" and "idiots will do stupid things regardless of what the law says". The first is paranoia and the second is irrelevant.

I'm still waiting to see some decent arguments _against_ tiered licencing that aren't also equally applicable to arguments against having licences at all (which you may well agree with, but if you don't I sincerely doubt this is a discussion worth continuing).

Show me that tiered licensing programs save lives, and that the lower fatality rates in these nations have nothing to do with better rider/driver training than the US offers and maybe we can have a reasonable discussion about this.

This is a false dichotomy. There is no need for rider training and tiered licencing to be independent.

It is unlikely there would be any data with the variables controlled so finely as you want, anywhere. Most countries have implemented tiered licencing systems either before, or at the same time as, rider training. However, the point is there are vanishingly few rational arguments _against_ tiered licencing, many _for_ it and what data does exist, supports it.
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Old 01-06-2007, 03:12 AM   #263
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Default Re: Power to Wait

What's wrong with learning on an RS250? very first time I set off on a ride on the street I was on a KLR-650, my dad was on a RS250. We switched part way... I felt quite a bit more comfortable controling the RS250. The only tricky thing to it is the power band, but it's easy to stay out of the narrow thing if you want to... it actualy has good brakes too unlike the KLR-650.... and I was used to dirt bikes! but that KLR weighed about twice as much as a dirt bike.
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Old 01-06-2007, 09:01 AM   #264
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Default What if...

Your son paid his health insurance and then the insurance company made a mistake and dropped his coverage without informing him? Or if he was laid off and couldn't pay the COBRA premium? Or if the insurance company decided to drop him because he was engaged in "high-risk" activity? Or dropped him because he didn't report breaking his wrist at age 14 and this was a pre-existing condition?

Oh, that would never happen, I'm sure.

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Old 01-06-2007, 12:25 PM   #265
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Default Re: What if...

The premise of the post by billhawley was that the rider is unhelmeted. If my son was dumb enough to ride w/o a helmet, I would have no problem with him paying the price for his actions. My motorcycle insurance offers bodily injury coverage for the rider as an option, far less expensive than any health insurance I've had.

Although it's pretty far afield from the original article, if the insurance industry wasn't so heavily regulated by the government (mostly the states) we could all buy insurance that was tailored to our needs, covering and/or excluding whatever risks we chose. And yes, like it or not, motorcycling is statistically a pretty risky activity, so our coverage would likely fall somewhere between that of knitters and those guys on jackass in cost.
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Old 01-07-2007, 06:51 PM   #266
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Default Re: What if...

Boy, you really stirred the hornets nest. I actually started riding on a self imposed tiered system. All that was available back in the sixties to a kid like me was a half interest in beat up 150 Bridgestone. I gradually worked up the cc ladder, and currently bounce around between a couple of old 650's, a `61 ci Iron Sporty and an late Tiger. Whoever said that "the throttle works both ways," really had it together.

I think riders should concentrate on getting the best training they can, and avoid yet another level of government incompetance.

Since there seems to be a corralation between drinking and crashing, how about a tiered drinking system?

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Old 01-08-2007, 10:10 AM   #267
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Default Re: Power to Wait

Tiered systems are revered because they are used in Countries like Britain who also train their riders to a much higher degree. This for a basic licence which is often followed by advanced training by organizations like ROSPA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and the IAM, Institute of Advanced Motoring. All of this is actual on road training with an instructor observing and critisizing.

The police in Avon Sommerset studied MC fatalities in South Western Britain and found the main cause of deaths were single vehicle events involving the rider blowing a corner that he/she should have been able to make. Even at the speed the rider was going there should have been no problem. Training was fingered as the culprit, specifically, going into turns in too high a gear, apexing too soon and running wide. Good training can almost eliminate these problems.

On the otherhand, no tears for tiers. A side affect of training is that students will ask for instructor's opinions about the bikes they plan to buy and inappropriate choices will usually beweeded out. This is as far as we should go down the tiered route.

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Old 01-08-2007, 08:04 PM   #268
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Default Re: Power to Wait

Somewhere around 50,000 people die in vehicle wrecks each year in the US and of those a fraction are riding motorcycles. It just seems odd that there is so much handwringing over relatively small numbers. Worrying about the cagers dying on the raods would seem to be more productive.
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Old 01-12-2007, 06:47 AM   #269
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Default Re: Power to Wait

If tiered licensing will result in 250cc bikes that can do 140 mph, I'm all for it.
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Old 01-17-2007, 06:05 AM   #270
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Default Re: Power to Wait

let's set aside the question of whether more cc's = more accidents...it can remain a matter of opinion till supporting data is gathered one way or the other.

The one thing everyone seems to agree on is more training = safer riders.

So what if you look at a tiered system as not a system for keeping inexperienced riders off powerful - and arguably more dangerous - bikes, but as a reward system for getting higher levels of training?

(Successfully complete xyz course to be licensed for abc-level weight/horsepower ratio, etc.)

Then we have more riders being motivated to seek more training.

Sure, some will ignore the system - but that's the way the world works.

I know I need more training.

I also need a better reason to seek it out. (Stupidly, saving my own life isn't motivating enough - it'll never happen to me - but being licensed to ride a liter bike might be.)

That said, it's all hypothetical. I truly don't like the idea of more gv't regs. I don't trust them to get it right.

But just for the sake of argument, try looking at it as reward for training instead of restriction for safety, and it becomes more appealing.

I still don't know that I would vote for it though.

As a wise man once said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Words to live by...though it seems like we've largely forgotten them in recent times. But that's another story.

Far easier to give up "others" liberties for "their own good" and more so when the "others" in question are our children. Of course we want them to be safe.

But at the cost of their freedoms?

how many choices should the gov't be making for us and our children, in the name of safety?


adding fuel to the fire...

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