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Old 10-12-2005, 04:26 AM   #31
edward44
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Default Re: Better Living Through Motorcycling - I was there

I to have have problems turning my head but my doctor says its arthritis. Anyway, I have reservations about this looking thru tight turns. It probably works on parking lots going around cones, but if you need to ride in the real world around 8" curbs and sandy streets, I suggest looking at the road. Guess I am too sot in my ways to benifit from Lee's instruction.

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Old 10-12-2005, 06:08 AM   #32
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Default Re: Better Living Through Motorcycling - I was there

That may be a possibility
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Old 10-12-2005, 07:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: Better Living Through Motorcycling - I was there

A good example of looking through turns is entering a freeway from one of those big loopy onramps. Looking about 1/3 to half way around the corner should help you feel more comfortable and stable in your lane. It's even better in corners in the mountains. But, if you go slow you may not notice much difference.



Most of these techniques help you go faster. But what if you don't want to go faster?!?
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Old 10-12-2005, 07:53 AM   #34
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.. remember, with a field gun, you've got to "cover" the bird with the barrel, and with a "trap" gun the bird goes on top of the barrel. Something about the stock differences.
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Old 10-12-2005, 08:20 AM   #35
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Default Hanging Off

Lee teaches it because he wants to demonstrate the "perfect" way to turn; how to maximize your motorcycle's turning potential.



Once you have the idealized turning method down, you can modify for the situation. Obviously, in most street situations you are not going to hang off so much. But if you practice doing it the ideal way until it is second nature, your turning will become more effortless and smoother, even if you just shift your weight a little bit and your knee is nowhere near the ground.



As far as street survival strategies, like you mention, the MSF does cover that in the BRC and their ARC. Lee focuses on the techniques in his book, which doesn't really discuss that kind of thing.
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Old 10-12-2005, 08:24 AM   #36
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Default Re: Better Living Through Motorcycling - I was there

There are no mountains around here, so maybe that's why I see things differently. Certainly there are situations, like rounding blind corners, where the condition of the road becomes secondary to the prospect of a vehicle suddenly appearing. And ,yes, certainly on clover leaf type ramps, looking ahead is helpful. But no special training is required in these conditions as looking ahead is an intuitve response.

My belief is that the techniques of counter steering, looking thru a corner, and hanging off dragging a knee are needed on the race course and not needed for street riding. If you are going so fast road riding that you need them, you are putting yourself at an unacceptable risk.

As for hanging off, the British Magazine Bike, ran an issue a few years ago advocating knee dragging and giving instructions in it's use. The late Barry Sheene had a column in the mag at that time and stated that putting a knee down while road riding was pathetic.

If you want to play racer on the road, OK. But it is possibe to ride fast without resorting to these

specialist techniques.
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Old 10-12-2005, 09:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: Better Living Through Motorcycling - I was there

"My belief is that the techniques of counter steering, looking thru a corner, and hanging off dragging a knee are needed on the race course and not needed for street riding."



With the exception of "dragging a knee" I will assume you are kidding or don't ride a motorcycle.
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Old 10-12-2005, 10:33 AM   #38
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Default Re: Better Living Through Motorcycling - I was there

First off, I am not kidding and I ride a motorcycle ('92 Yam FZR600) and have ridden for a very long time.

Second, counter steering: Several years ago there was a heated discussion in RoadracingWorld re countersteering the proposition being advanced that one countersteered whether one knew it or not. So one reader rigged a pointer to the front forks of his race bike with a line on the center of the tank to see if he countersteered. He reported he did not. Draw your own conclusions.

As for looking thru the turn, one does it intuitively when necessary, otherwise, focus on the apex and use peripheral vision for beyond.

I was just watching a tape of Sundays WSB race

for this and Katayama I noticed would focus on the apex of the turn until he was just at it before looking up course. Of course all turns and all riders are different, but that is what I observed.



I have ordered Lee's book, so perhaps I will change my opinions. When I started riding these terms were unkown. How on earth did we manage.

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Old 10-12-2005, 12:40 PM   #39
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Default Re: Better Living Through Motorcycling - I was there

Pridmore and Code have been jerking eachother around on the counter vs. body steer thing for a long time.

Both those guys know more about bike dynamics that I ever will. However, If you are pushing/pulling on one grip or the other you are probably counter steering. Secondly, if you choose to look at the road infront of your tire something will surprize you up ahead. Looking ahead also helps slow the sensation of speed which in turn lets you ride more relaxed.

Just because they don't have a term for it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Old 10-12-2005, 01:41 PM   #40
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Default Re: Better Living Through Motorcycling - I was there

Well, I have done a little Googling on the subject and am totally confused on the issue. I know countersteering works as advertised because I have tried it On the other hand, the way I control the bike is with body weight and pushing down on one bar and pulling up on the other, i.e. down on the left to turn left. This is usually imperceptable except in emergency situations, when it is done aggressively. At normal speeds it is like I just think turn left, or right. At abnormal speed, like MotoGP, as the gyroscopic effects increase with speed, god knows what they have to do to turn the bike.

As for watching the road when turning, if I have a clear view and wish to have a bit of fun, I will focus on the apex to see that the surface will support my speed. If there is traffic I well slow and focus on that.

On the other hand, I press down on the bars to lean the bike, but leaning the bike in itself might turn the wheel in the opposite direction. I 'll have to investigate this further.
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