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Old 09-12-2004, 10:48 AM   #61
sqidbait
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

Personally, I wonder if that bike was cancelled for more mundane reasons... perhaps it wasn't faster than the Busa or ZX12?



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Old 09-12-2004, 11:12 AM   #62
Labrat
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

I thought that they were going to take that engine and put into a new Trophy 1300.
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Old 09-12-2004, 01:38 PM   #63
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

I'd like to see a new production Trophy 1300.
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Old 09-12-2004, 01:59 PM   #64
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

It's innovative because as far as I know it hasn't been tried out on a production motorcycle in the last 10-20 years, they have stronger, lighter alloys now to make it work. Innovative because the girder design uses rotational bearings in place of telescoping bearings on traditional forks, bearing area and motion is significantly reduced and stiction under braking is almost eliminated. The telescoping action of traditional forks means that the front wheel is constantly accelerating or decelerating relative to the bike itself. This relative motion of the wheel and tire must either be absorbed by the tire, the fork or the brakes and often manifest itself as a "chatter" in any or all of those components. The wide use of carbon fiber composites, alloys, cutting edge materials not available before, and the girder design assure that unlike traditional systems, the front wheel position relative to the bike is constant even with extreme suspension movement. This creates a more stable platform under extreme forces (better braking) and a more direct feeling as rigidity is increased (better handling).
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Old 09-12-2004, 04:01 PM   #65
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

I'm certainly no engineer, but from my quite primitive understanding, all of what you say is true--in theory. I can't help but think that if this type of front end were far superior to the telescopic fork, we'd be seeing it in MotoGP already. I think I remember reading that even John Britten, who was a fierce believer in his girder design, had at least one key member of his organization that seriously doubted how much of an actual improvement it made.



Listen, I love the idea of the duolever, but until someone tells me it makes a significant difference, I wouldn't pay a premium for it. I'm sure many BMW loyalists will, and that's fine. After all, excusivity is one of BMW's features.



The electronic suspension control is cool, too. But I don't see how it's going to be put to much use on this bike. Yossef himself said he rode it most of the time in the Normal mode.



Keep the funky engineering coming, I say. I love new and different stuff. But time will tell whether any of this stuff makes a difference.
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Old 09-12-2004, 05:37 PM   #66
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

Good points, but knowing a few engineers they to are definite, straightforward, unequivocal, but are limited by their biases, personal and institutional policy. So you just don't stop doing what you and everyone else is doing to head off in another direction. What I mean is...You won't always see what's best coming out of racing, it's an institution. Some demonstration of this design by a Brit in MotoGP who independently raced three bikes. Can't remember his name except it starts with a H. Anyway racing isn't the street.



The electronic suspension control could be helpful riding two up. But it's the beginning for active suspensions



I agree, " Keep the funky engineering coming, I say. I love new and different stuff". I disagree with your statement, "But time will tell whether any of this stuff makes a difference." Better design is better, it doesn't matter if you buy it or it doesn't make it in the market. That's marketing's problem! The market doesn't always pick the better stuff, and time won't tell because it's can't speak. Good engineering is good engineering, who cares about making a difference BMW makes enough money. BMW once in a while will just put out good engineering and they don't care about anything else! Because demonstrative design changes are expensive and for some manufactures almost impossible you have to give BMW some credit here. I want to ride this bike.

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Old 09-12-2004, 05:41 PM   #67
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Default Re: Not Even the Same Category

It’s an excellent debate. The great thing about bikes and the folks who ride them is their passion and loyalty to ‘their’ bikes. Like I wrote earlier, I’ve owned many bikes and ridden even more. Harley’s are great and there’s not much better then cruising around, feet forward and relaxed. Japanese sport bikes are a hoot. If your talking bang for the performance buck, you just can’t beat ‘em. Owned a few and even got ‘em out on the track once and a while. MV? Gorgeous. Had the opportunity to demo a Brutale S a couple weeks back. Nice inline 750. Guess what though? A Gixxer 750 would dust it and you’d still have money left over for a bunch of gear and aftermarket add-ons. So how ‘bout the BM’s – that was the original point right? See, the fact is, until the bike actually hits the streets, you just can’t judge it. Opining that it’s – (oh, what was that pithy acronym - Boring Metal Winner, right?) - a lousy bike without even riding the thing is just not credible. It’s cool to have an opinion about other BM’s (again, I agree with you on the CL) but you may want to at least see the new bike in the flesh first. When I first saw the Duc 999, I thought – blick. But then I saw one at a show and realized pictures just didn’t do it justice. Of course, the new K bike may be uglier to you in person.



HereÂ’s what I do know. The telelever / paralever suspension is the best road-bike suspension IÂ’ve ever experienced. The lack of fork-dive takes some getting used too, but once you do, youÂ’d be amazed at how much more confidence you have when leaned over on a tight, bumpy, curve. The thing just never gets unsettled and loves trail-braking. BM dealers and support are top-notch. Every new BM includes roadside assistance (which you may never need, but itÂ’s nice to know that if you break a chain or clutch cable somewhere in the middle of no-where, help is a phone call away). BM dealers treat folks like adults, whereas (in my experience) the Yama-Honda-Kawa-Zuki folks are just out to move as many bikes to as many clueless pimple-faced teenagers with a permit as they can. BMÂ’s hold their value. Japanese bikes donÂ’t.



I guess by now you figured I own a BM and love a good old-fashioned debate. Yep, got me a Â’03 R1150R (in addition to a Â’99 Speed Triple and a Â’00 YZF600R). Guess you could say I have issues. Anyway, paid less then $10k for the new BM out the door, including heating grips, a nice sports screen, accessory socket, center stand, and luggage mounting kit. Not exactly overpriced, eh? My BM dealer sponsors regular group rides, has free how to clinics, loaner bikes, free drop-off and pick-up for service, a nice lounge area, and tons of really good riding gear. My Yamaha dealer? Well, they do have a rude service counter woman and a Coke machine that eats your change. The Triumph guy is a little better, but still not in the same league as BMW. Oh, and BMW dealers all offer test rides. So, when the K-bike hits you local BMW dealer floor, go ride one. You might just be surprised. Or not. Either way, itÂ’s all good.



Ride On!

Hubb
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Old 09-12-2004, 09:03 PM   #68
SeanAlexander
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

Too True
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I thought I'd found true happiness in my personal bath body bar.... Then I tried DOVE! with 1/4 moisturizing cream!!!
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Old 09-13-2004, 01:11 AM   #69
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Default Re: How often?

Well over here fag means a cigarette as well as other things. Tyre is the way it should be spelt, as well as colour etc etc etc.



Just remember, people on here are from all over the place. We can't help it if you have certain hangups in the US of A.



Just make sure you watch your use of fanny as others may be offended....
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Old 09-13-2004, 02:10 AM   #70
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

Yes, yes, racing is not the street. Racetracks are billiard table-smooth and roads are most certainly not. But I'm pretty sure that that ANY component that would offer a signifincant and definite improvement in chassis stability (a Holy Grail in racing) would be given a serious look. And maybe some of the teams are looking at it right now, who knows? Honda, for example, seems willing to look at alternative front end designs. And as for your speculation about a racing/engineering institution, I'm sure you're right. But, people like John Britten raised the question years ago. I can't help but think someone has or is examining the real benefits of systems like duolever.



And again, yes, the best product does not always survive. But the annals of marketing are littered with "better" products that were not, in practicality, all they were cracked up to be. It also depends on how much better it is than what's out there already and what it costs. The cost/benefit ratio of the duolever may not be that impressive considering how and where most people ride. Especially the weenies who just go out and buy the most expensive "gee whiz" bike they can find so people can ooh and ah at it.



Conversely, and this is something you didn't consider, sometimes revolutionary design IS the marketing gimmick. Sometimes a new design looks good on paper--and in ads--but provides no real functional advantage.



Like I said, I love the idea of the duolever. If it's truly a better system, we'll find out when enough people have ridden the bike extensively. If it really does work, you can bet that all of the other manufacturers will take a look at their own non-traditional systems. But I don't think you can assert that it's uneqivocally a better design based on theory and what it's "supposed" to be.



If, in reality, it only makes a small improvement, it's right where it belongs--on a pricey BMW.
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