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Old 09-14-2004, 04:23 AM   #103
brianriley
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Default Re: Case in point - Iraq

Hey man I just wanted to check to be sure you hadn't flip-floped - thats all-



"The man is spoiled little rich boy who got special treatment" - this could be said about both men running



but enough with the politics -

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Old 09-14-2004, 05:30 AM   #104
pdad13
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Default Re: mikedard is right:Examples of good engineering going up against institutional bia

Hey, I like the duolever. I think it's really cool. I'm just waiting for some objecitive (as possible) views of the thing. To say it's great because it should be according to what it says on paper is a bit of a leap. If it turns out to be a real improvement, I hope some version of it makes it's way onto other bikes and brands. That's all I'm saying.



And by the way, I own two Macs. I love them. I hate to use anything else. But I don't think it was as much a case of institutional bias, as it was a case of shortsightedness. Jobs let Apple be engulfed by the IBM clones because he could not see that the real growth in the PC industry was in the software, not the hardware. Consequently the price of an IBM clone was far less than a Mac. Now, would you pay twice as much for a machine that pretty much does your spreadsheets and word processing the same way as your good ol' IBM PS2? You see, in most ways, the Mac was far superior to the IBM platform. But with the limited number of applications being used in business at the time, why would anyone pay so much more for a it? In light of the cost differential, the Mac was essentially unessesary, at least at first.



My industry was one of the first to recognize the value of the Mac. And from the stories I hear, you couldn't do all that much on them, anyway. But at the time, it was an incredible step forward in print design and production. Problem is most people didn't work in advertising. They were learning to use Lotus and Word Perfect--programs that worked just fine on a cheaper, easily-available IBM clone. (Sound a bit like telescopic forks and duolever, maybe?)



Turns out the Mac ended up revolutionizing the industry anyway after Gates knocked off the Mac OS and its GUI (Which Jobs & Co. stole from Xerox in the 70's). They just almost went out of business in the process.



If duolever is the real deal, you'll start seeing more systems like it in the near future.
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Old 09-14-2004, 05:41 AM   #105
obandoj
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I agree with you in their "feelings of superiority" statement. I have met some very arrogant BMW owners on the road.
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Old 09-14-2004, 05:52 AM   #106
pdad13
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

Ask Kenny Roberts how well his F-1 designer did with designing the new Proton V-5. Apparently, F-1 and MotoGP are a bit different.



But let's say most MotoGP designers would rather change the telescopic fork, which they probably do because I've been hearing this for years.



Why haven't they done it? Institutional bias? Doesn't sound like it if most of them agree the telescopic fork is a weak point. Everything I've read and heard suggests that everyone in the know thinks that the telescopic fork should give way to a better design. Honda is working with alternative front ends. Do you really think that Honda would hold back a significant breakthrough from their MotoGP operation because of institutional bias? Are you kidding? They'd be the first out there if they had a truly better design. And you'd never hear the end of it. Sh*t they made such a big deal out of Unit Pro Link. Imagine if they built the better-mousetrap-girder-front end.



I'm not saying duolever isn't the better mousetrap. It might be. I would love to see it succeed. I would just like someone who knows to tell us that it actually works better.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:10 AM   #107
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

Actually, I didn't prove your point. The fact was that Tyrell actually built these cars, raced them, and proved that they were better. I don' t see much institutional bias in the engineering community in that example. They actually tried the new design.



The FIA outlawed them because they were too good and upsetting the competitive balance. If you want to argue that that's institutional bias, be my guest. But that had more to do with money than any particular ingrained, biased mindset--except for that fact that it's pretty well accepted that cars have FOUR wheels (yes, institutional bias, I guess.)



I'm pretty sure that if someone came out with a better front end in MotoGP, the rest of the teams would follow suit.



Now, if some one showed up with a three-wheeled motorcycle, they might have a problem.
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Old 09-14-2004, 08:08 AM   #108
bmwdude
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Default Re: 2005 BMW K1200S

Yep, this one will be in my barn just as soon as they start to come available used. I think most will agree with me that the nearly $20K price on a new Brick is a bit much. I purchased my current K1200RS used this past July. It's a 2000 that had 5000 miles on it when I brought it home, for $10K. I've never owned a new Beemer, and I've never been sorry for buying a used one. Beemer owners tend to baby their bikes. BTW, the bike I retired to buy my current ride was also a K1200RS. A 1998 that had 155+ thousand miles on it when I handed over the keys to the new owner. I never had to do anything other than normal PM to the bike. Fantastic machines!!!!
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:14 AM   #109
mikedard
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Default Cars have four wheels? So you do see?

So you do see. what killed the Tyrell was, personal bais, institutional bais, etc..It can't be eliminated. You can't have racing machines looking like something not close to what we recognize, or can relate to. Because it's a business you have to make money. People pay to see their, colors, number, motorcycles, cars, drivers, win, racing doesn't have to use to much "innovative engineering designs", because they limit the need for that with the rules. Anyway if we can't make a emotional connection the lemmings won't make a money offering (marketing). LOL, Sorry couldn't resist. I'm the same way but I fight it!



I always study my self, trying to find the balance, because not everything can be worked out with a formula. The reality even with formulas is, " The self, the I, is recognized in every act of intelligence as the subject to which that act belongs. It is I that perceive, I that imagine, I that remember, I that attend, I that compare, I that feel, I that will, I that am conscious. --Sir W. Hamilton."



I watched the Mac/PC's before any software was out, (Mac system had usable native stuff) and the standard baised kill qoute then was, "stay true to big Blue". Which I took to mean IBM was the way to go because they were not "long hair hippies", who did these guys think they are!, we not going to let them make us look stupid coming into our privileged field of the computer rocking the boat with "point,cut, paste, and click! The only way that computers can be is to toggle, keycard, or type. When I type a command I want it to do something!!! Many of the not true cliches are passed on from generation-to-generation.



And the standard baised kill qoutes though out this thread mouthed, typed without any thought, doesn't change the fact that the "Tyrell was innovative", "The Mac was innovative" and my statement that "The K1200S is innovative".



Damm time to go I have to get back on the "Blue" line", squeak, squeak, lemmings translation - I have to pay back the Master. They use PC's where I work, now, they took away our Macs. LOL



Thanks for the appropriate thought processes. Great posts.

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Old 09-14-2004, 12:26 PM   #110
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Default It's all relative

Yo, JB, anything looks long next to that XB9S you've been droolin' over.
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