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Old 04-21-2003, 02:15 PM   #31
piinob
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Default Re: Why don't motorcycle journals present hard data?

I have prefered cruiser style bikes with V-2 engines for quite some time now. I thought the original Virago was one of the most practical moves Yamaha ever made. I got years and miles of good service out of my '82, in spite of the starter problems that plagued the '82 and '83 models, (and no moto-journalist told me about till years later). Like any one who rides I wanted more motor. The point is that I want real world useful data about day to day riding. Yes I want to know if it is fast to to next light, will it stop as quick as it will take off, does the suspension work, ergos ,vibration etc... How does it do in a strong crosswind, how do the headlights work in the country, in the dark, alone. I want to know how it rides and handles with a passenger, or a fifty pound dufflebag on the back.

It is obvious that a cruiser evaluation is very different from a sportbike evaluation. MO does a great job at sportbike evals, so do a lot of others. When it comes to cruisers, leave out the track data, and tell me what it is like to live with the bike for five days on the road. And when you do, include the riders weight and height. To write a review of a motorcycle from an afternoon riding around town is just not much.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:37 PM   #32
jmeyn
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Default Re: Why don't motorcycle journals present hard data?

Point taken. Off the track you're combining brakes and cornering all the time. On the track the ideal situation I mentioned is restricted to pure corners, not combinations of corners.



The most striking thing about Rossi is how little he uses the brakes once he has entered a series of corners. Hard on for the first corner, then beautiful smooth instantaneous transitions till the blast onto the straight. Miracles every lap. Kato could do that, too.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why don't motorcycle journals present hard data?

If you want numbers they will be meaningless unless they are corrected for "rider weight/elevation/temperature/barometric pressure/rider temperament". Rider ability, tires and biases are all just as important (and interesting) as the raw numbers.



If you read that a Honda 600RR went 180 mph without knowing that Sean Alexander was riding it with a 70mph tailwind you might be a bit mislead about the true potential of the bike.
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:01 PM   #34
rsheidler
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Default Re: Apple vs. orange

My point with the Miata vs Toyota comparison is to illustrate the limitations of using a particular performance measurement (in this case, max g on a skidpad) as a measure of which handles better -- per the skidpad, the Toyota is the better handling car -- if you believe that, you have no car-guy gene.



What all of us really mean by "handling" is really a very complex set of machine-human interfaces that don't lend themselves to being reduced to simple statistics. Steady-state traction is only one of the factors.
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Old 04-21-2003, 03:05 PM   #35
jmeyn
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Default Re: Why don't motorcycle journals present hard data?

Think about the new 600's. Statistically, they're so close you could cover them all with a shop rag.



Sure, because they're all honed as close to the traction limits imposed by physics as the manufacturers feel is manageable on the street. That goes for Open Class bikes as well. All these bikes approach 1 G acceleration to 60 mph, Open Class bikes to 100 mph. The differences are mainly in launchability (power manageability). The same goes for braking.



Only the most exotic cars can approach the limits of physics except in straight line acceleration, so the numbers mean more.

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Old 04-21-2003, 03:35 PM   #36
ender
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Default Re: Why don't motorcycle journals present hard data?

Ooops, bad example. I should have checked before I used the R1/R6... I really am not usuually lazy...
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:10 PM   #37
solar1
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Default Re: Why don't motorcycle journals present hard data?

You have a perfectly good point. Numbers need to be corrected. But that doesn't explain why MO just avoids performance figures. My point in dismissing the percieved obstacles is that those obstacles can be overcome, MO just chooses not to deal with them.
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Old 04-21-2003, 05:17 PM   #38
dardas
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Default Re: Why don't motorcycle journals present hard data?

I was just messing around; no hard feelings, eh?



It always looks so much more critical and not half as funny - as was intended - when I re-read what I've typed.
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Old 04-21-2003, 06:31 PM   #39
KPaulCook
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Default Read rather than ride I don't think so (facts and data)

How many miles have you ridden since January pal. ? Who rides to work every day (34 miles round trip)? I am putting about 8000 miles a year on my bike (at current rate). Who rides 72 miles ever weekend ???? I start riding my bike to work when daylight savings starts and stop when it ends. But during standard time I ride on the weekends. Anytime you want to race let me know? I'll be passing through your Colorado wanna be state on my way to see my folks this summer. You name the place and time. I bring my ninja.
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Old 04-22-2003, 01:59 AM   #40
robb_millett
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Default Re: Why don't motorcycle journals present hard data?

I am surprised that the originator of this thread implies that quatifiable perfromance data is hard to find or bikes. That stuff is EASY to find, especially in the MAJOR enthusiast mags, CW and Mcylist. MO is pretty good about it too.



This exact issue has been raised several times over the years in the print rags, regarding specifically lateral accelerations. the print rags and the best of the online motojournals usually provide all the meaningful qualifiable perfromance specs that a reader needs to characterize and compare performance potential between bikes...



Really, the ONLY meaningfully quantifiable performance number you get in car tests that you DON'T get with bikes is lateral aceleration.

Most full bike road tests include Accleration, top speed, braking distance, weights (just like the cars), geometric data, and some other motorcycle-specific data.



I have to paraphrase here, and I may get some details wrong becasue I'm going from memory, but as I recall the reason that the moto mags don't provide lateral acceleration (cornering "g") data is because of the methods of generating that data: there are two, measuring lateral acceleraton directly with an accelerometer package, and calculating from skidpad speed.



regarding the first, motorcycles tilt when they corner, and none of the accelerometer-based lateral G measuring devices can take that tilt into account. They need to be mounted flat (like, on a seat, or in the trunk/package space), since the accelerometers can only measure acceleration in a linear vector.



The other method of measuring lateral acceleration is to drive around a skidpad of known diameter increasing speed until the car spins ( or can otherwise no longer be held to the skidpad line becasue of tire slip ) and then from the skidpad diameter and maximum measured vehicle speed, calculate the G force generated.



any of the MO staffers who can add to this please correct me if I've gotten any of this wrong.

I'm sure most can understand that trying the latter method with a motorcycle is inviting a crash, so the magazines don't do it.



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