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Old 10-31-2002, 01:04 PM   #71
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Default Re: Great Arguments for Stupid People, Part II

Well said, DJS. A quote I cling to is"the true value of an education is the ability to listen to an opinion at odds with your own without anger", or something like that by I don't know who. JB, I love ya', and your prose is a treasure. This was well said and thoughtful, much better than the (dare I say it) diatribe you unleashed against things I believe in a few weeks ago. Keep up the good work and strive for motorcycle relevance, which, come to think of it, covers a heck of a lot.
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Old 10-31-2002, 01:32 PM   #72
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Default Re: Great Arguments for Stupid People, Part II

You mention the 'liberal media.' Please, let me know where exactly I can find such 'liberal' media nowdays (besides online). All I see on TV or in the papers is right-slanted pro-war rah rah rah....
\"One of the saddest phenomena of modern times is that millions of asses are suffering needlessly because Dennis Hopper and Peter Fonda were morons 30 years ago.\" - John Prurient Burns
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Old 10-31-2002, 01:44 PM   #73
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Default Socialism?


This post does shed some light on your previously stated positions, and I feel like I may at least finally have a basis to discuss your positions.

A key point is your definition of "socialism" -- obviously, you and I mean quite different things when we use that term, and I now realize just how far apart those definitions must be.

If you consider Social Security and Welfare to be "socialism" then virtually every major Republican or Democratic politician (even Libertarian, for that matter) of the past 60+ years must be socialist. There has been a lot of debate over how to fund them, and the degree of funding, qualification criteria etc, but I cannot think of a single nationally prominant politician who has not at least publicaly supported both to some degree.

I use the term "socialism" as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary: "1. any of various theories of the ownership and operation of means of production and distribution by society rather than by private individuals, with all members sharing the work and the products 2. a political movement for establishing such a system...." I could be wrong, but I believe that this definition is close to what is generally understood to be the meaning of the term.

By either definition, we certainly have socialist components to our economy -- for certain the county-owned hospital where I work, the public high school my daughter attends, the county road department or Cal-Trans who build and maintain the roads I ride my motorcycle on, the CHP or county sheriff deputy who tickets me for excessive speed on those roads and the county ambulance that picks up my broken body if I blow a turn all are examples of state ownership of means of production. While we may quibble over how these units do their jobs, and how much of our resources they should consume (I personally want more allocated to the hospital so I can get a raise, more to my daughter's high school, more to fix some of the potholes in the local roads and a lot less to traffic enforcement), I doubt if many of us seriously want these institutions eliminated.

Of course, you may define the term "Socialism" in any way you choose, and provided that others are aware of that definition, there is nothing misleading in doing so. However, by your apparent definition, 99+% of the American public would qualify as "Socialists" rendering the term relatively meaningless -- any political label that covers Rush Limbaugh and Al Sharpton does not privide much information.

Even using my much more restrictive definition, labeling a program as "Socialism" does not go very far to advance our understanding of the issue. For example, to call the British or Canadian national health systems "socialism" is accurate (by both your and my definitions) but does not address the question of whether or not it is desirable. If you are talking to someone who already agrees that ALL state ownership is a terrible thing, then it is fine to just label it as socialism, but if you are trying to pursuade the rest of us, most of whom agree that at least limited state ownership may be desirable, you have not advanced the argument simply by labeling it.

In any case, now that I better understand what you mean, next time you label me, or someone who expresses views with which I agree, as a Socialist, I can hold my head high, in the knowledge that I am in the company of Truman, Ike, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan both Bushes, Clinton and countless other prominant politicians of the past 50 years, rather than feeling paranoid that you have somehow uncovered my 60's radical past. For that, I thank you.

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Old 10-31-2002, 01:48 PM   #74
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Default Re: Great Arguments for Stupid People, Part II

Now there's an intelligent response. I'll bet you've been called a fair share of silly names before, prolly on the 'liberal' side, true? Wish we had more of this kinda thought here....
\"One of the saddest phenomena of modern times is that millions of asses are suffering needlessly because Dennis Hopper and Peter Fonda were morons 30 years ago.\" - John Prurient Burns
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Old 10-31-2002, 01:50 PM   #75
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Default Re: Great Arguments for Stupid People, Part II

Think again (or perhaps for the first time)

History leads to unlikely union

By Maria Sanminiatelli ASSOCIATED PRESS

SALEM, Va. _ At times, the research was painful for William


Court records, family documents and visits to museums

yielded evidence of slaves, the ships that carried them and

the tools that restrained them.

Now, Mr. Holland's genealogical quest has taken him to a

place that many blacks consider just as offensive: the Sons

of Confederate Veterans.

Mr. Holland decided to join the group after it confirmed

that his great-great-grandfather, Creed Holland, was a slave

who was made to serve as a wagon driver in the Confederate

infantry. Two of William Holland's brothers also have signed

up, a third is considering it, and a sister has applied for

membership in the United Daughters of the Confederacy.

"Why not?" Mr. Holland asked of his family's unusual action,

calling their ancestor's service _ albeit forced _ a point

of immense pride.

"During the whole fiasco with the Civil War, a lot of men

didn't come home. It was a tough time, and to survive that

and come back alive was an accomplishment," he said. "Our

grandfather fought with them, so there will be some respect

for us and for our family."

Organization officials say minorities are almost certainly a

part of the membership in every Southern state chapter,

though the exact number is not known because applicants

aren't asked about their race. The only requirement is proof

that a direct ancestor served "honorably" in the Confederate


Ben C. Sewell III, executive director of the 31,000-member

organization, declined to give an estimate.

"Nobody really knows," Mr. Sewell said, speaking from his

office in Columbia, Tenn. "Obviously, we'd like to have more

black or minority members, because the fact that we have

minorities and welcome them deflects some of the criticism

we seem to get, primarily because of the battle flag."

The group, founded in 1896 to honor the Confederate dead,

has successfully fought to get the Confederate flag logo on

license plates in several states, including Virginia,

Maryland and North Carolina. It also has spent considerable

time maintaining that it is possible to defend the

Confederacy without being a racist.

An organization fact sheet says tens of thousands of blacks

served in the Confederate Army as laborers, teamsters, cooks

and soldiers.

Historians have largely shied away from researching blacks

in the Confederate Army, and precise numbers are hard to

come by, said Gary W. Gallagher, a professor of Civil War

history at the University of Virginia.

"You often see these wildly inflated figures of black

soldiers in the Confederate Army _ 40,000, 50,000, 60,000 _

the implication being that they carried muskets and fought,

and that is simply not true," Mr. Gallagher said. He said

that probably "a handful" of black men fought in the war and

called the number "statistically insignificant."

Mr. Gallagher also dismissed the notion that some of those

black men supported the Confederacy.

"The overwhelming majority of black Confederate soldiers _

and you can put that in quotation marks _ didn't want to be

there but were made to be there," he said.

For many blacks, the notion of joining a group honoring the

Confederacy that enslaved their ancestors is


"I can't even fathom why they would want to be a part of

this," said Milton Reid, who founded the Virginia chapter of

the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. "I think there

are some things we have done in the past that should die,

and this should die. I'm talking about the whole idea of the


But for Mr. Holland and his brothers, joining the Sons of

Confederate Veterans and paying the $34 annual membership

fee is a way to honor their ancestors and to better

understand what motivates the group.

"I want to learn both sides of it and also educate others by

what I might learn," said Mr. Holland, 33, who lives in


"It's hard, especially for our side. But you can't always

sweep things under the carpet. At some point, you just have

to sit down and talk about it. That's the best way you can

resolve issues, period."

Mr. Holland's curiosity was aroused years ago by the stories

his father, Sam Holland Sr., told about growing up in a

segregated Virginia.

He knew that his great-great-grandfather had been a slave on

a Franklin County plantation owned by descendants of Thomas

Johnson Holland, who bought the 732 acres of land in 1850.

There, his family grew tobacco and grain, and produced

moonshine before it became illegal.

While leafing through Franklin County's court records,

William Holland discovered Creed Holland's marriage license

from 1868. His research led him to Hazel Holland Davis,

whose family was a slaveholder of Creed Holland and who

still lives in the family home. Mrs. Davis also was

researching her ancestors and had unearthed a list of the

plantation's slaves who had received Confederate pensions.

Creed Holland was among them.

Last month, Mrs. Davis mentioned Creed Holland's service

record to Robert W. "Red" Barbour, the former state

commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Mr. Barbour

approached John Wayne Holland, his colleague at Yokohama

Tire in Salem, and asked whether he was related to William

Holland. Upon hearing that the men were brothers, Mr.

Barbour asked John Holland if he would join the


"I felt honored," said John Holland, 47. "It's a good

education to be able to get along with people from all walks

of life. And history is history, so you go back in time and

learn things."

William Holland followed soon after, and a few weeks later,

37-year-old Ben Holland signed the organization's membership

papers under Mr. Barbour's satisfied gaze.

The brothers said they were surprised to learn their

great-great-grandfather had served in the Confederate Army.

They said they had never been taught about the role of

slaves or free blacks in the Civil War.

"A lot of people don't want to learn about it," said Ben

Holland, a maintenance supervisor for the American Red Cross

in Roanoke. "But you've got to relive history. How are you

going to outline your future if you don't know about your


To Ben Holland, the Confederate flag isn't offensive. Many

of his school friends displayed it on their cars and outside

their western Virginia homes.

"It wasn't no big deal. It wasn't no racist deal. It's

heritage," Ben Holland said. "A lot of people say that's

hatred. No, it's not. It's heritage."

So far, the brothers say they haven't been criticized for

joining the organization.

"It's their constitutional right and their heritage, and

they shouldn't be harassed," Mr. Barbour said. "And the

harassment is going to come from their side, not ours."

William Holland said he hopes to turn his research into a

book or documentary about the friendship between the black

Hollands and the white Hollands. He also plans to take his

genealogical quest to his ancestors' home tribe, the Ibo

farming community in Nigeria.

"People think you're a descendant of a slave," he said. "But

who were you before that?"

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Old 10-31-2002, 02:10 PM   #76
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Default Re: Hard to keep up

living in lefty ground zero [seattle area] it cracks me up to see the tree-hugger PETA crowd in their leather seat subaru's, I guess consistancey isn't a requierment these days.
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Old 10-31-2002, 02:24 PM   #77
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Johnny has admitted that he still has some difficulties with the technical aspects of the web site -- he musta sent the ad for the new Homimem out into cyberspace somewhere!

I hear that is is one of them new fangled hybrid things (ya know, gas-electric, like the Honda Prius) introduced to appeal to all those socialist, green, lefty western europeans!
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Old 10-31-2002, 02:31 PM   #78
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Oh well -- I am sure we will find something on which we can totally disagree soon enough, and the earth will resume spinning on its proper axis once again.


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Old 10-31-2002, 02:35 PM   #79
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Default Re: Great Arguments for Stupid People, Part II

>>post porno surfing middle aged John Burke wannabes.

Man my hand is sore.... <<

In my personal experience, it is not my hand that gets sore first (got 2 of em, so I can trade off)

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Old 10-31-2002, 02:40 PM   #80
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Default Re: Hard to keep up

Kinda like the Lincoln Navigator (with leather seats, obviously) with both Greenpeace and PETA stickers, parked in the lot at Outback Steakhouse (I assume they probably were just havin' the Bloomin Onion).
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