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-   -   Open Twins Shootout: The Street (http://www.motorcycle.com/forum/mo-reader-feedback/1190-open-twins-shootout-street.html)

MrBear44 04-26-2002 06:17 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
I'm glad you're free of the editor, JB. More fun to read than ever!

Duken4evr 04-26-2002 06:56 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Yes, unfettered Burns is a good thing.



I love the Aprilia. I own a TL. Oh well, the TL is a nice girl and so so reliable, but damn that grass looks so green over there...

KenP 04-26-2002 07:09 PM

You've got it bad, JohnnyB
 
Oh, yes...if you were anymore tongue-in-cheek, you would reference how much worse you had it under the thumb of BAM!



"God I hate them all"...



Yes, John, I hate the twins as well. Everytime I read a review from yee blessed MO trio about the latest and wettest inline fours, I lust about harnessing the topend surge and handling of the latest and greatest litre bike.



Then, reality sets in, and I sling a leg aboard my trusty heavily modified SV....and I realize that for us visceral types, V-Twins reign. Torque, revs to the throttle stop and premium brakes/suspenders give me the fix I've been seekin'.



I saw the Mille R at a dealership last Saturday,and all I have to say is...DROOL. Ohlins, Brembos, V-Twin rort and the ability to school the inline HP kings (in the palms/feet of the right pilot) makes me realize I've got something to dream about.



If only I could afford the insurance...oh...and riding ability.



Hang in there, John.

RickZ 04-26-2002 07:47 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Damn fine readin', Johnny. Keep it comin'.



Oh, and.... JEEEZ that Mille R makes me drool! Guess I'm gonna have to knock off a bank to afford one tho... {sigh} Oh well, one of these days...



Rick

SilverBullet 04-26-2002 08:35 PM

More, more, MORE!
 
This was very nice... but I want more!

Please don't forget to include specs and torque graphs along with the next phase, guys.




bluyzfr6 04-27-2002 04:22 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Videos? NO VIDEOS??? You guys are getting lazy. Id rather u wait a few more days to put a better piece together. I glanced at the 2000 twin comparo and it had MORE! I understand u do the new ones in three parts but you seem to be rushing them now. SO just so i have this right... I payed nothing for the overflowing piece on the 2000 twins(lots of pics and all the info i could handle and more) and i pay 12 bucks for a rushed piece with too much play-complaining and not enuff meaty info or pics? I hope the track and strip articles make up for this lame one. I also hope the supersport comparo is more like the old ones(with a duc to add flavor). I miss the old MO!

minime 04-27-2002 05:18 AM

Re: More, more, MORE!
 
That's all on the way...

alanheng 04-27-2002 06:02 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
heh...



You can't please them all.....

Nem 04-27-2002 06:39 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
What bluyzfr6 said is true, with bad manners.

Usual troll attitude.

Van 04-27-2002 07:27 AM

Guess I'll be the first to post the obligatory *****...
 
...concerning the fact that the price difference between the Mille R and the RC51 would buy a cushier seat and Ohlins goodies for the RC51, and still leave plenty left in your wallet.



When Aprilia offers a standard Mille that's still a lot more expensive than the RC51 it just ain't right to use the Ohlins-Oz wheels equipped R model in this comparo, especially since it's the standard model that's the defending champ in most Twins Comparos, including this one...

Gabe 04-27-2002 09:17 AM

God Bless JPB!!!
 
That's some fine writing, and I am glad he is writing here. His range of experience and reactions to the test bikes speak to me far more than most motojournalists, who often focus on technical details and jargon, instead of how well the bike interacts with the rider, which is what we all REALLY want to know. Who cares what kind of suspension or motor a bike has if it wears you out after an hour or won't run properly?



So keep it up, and keep us amused. Don't let anybody edit a word, even when you use a double "and". Also, I think that was the first use of the word "wattle" in a motorcycle article, and should earn you a Pulitzer.

MrBear44 04-27-2002 10:18 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
I'll use this opportunity to send an open message to Suzuki:



You need to give your twins a chance! You've clearly got one of the best sport twin engines around. You launched that engine in what can only be called an "experimental" chassis, with mixed results. It now looks like you're going to relegate the twin program to the back burner and stick to what you know, which is high performance, four-cylinder sport bikes.



I think you could compete very well with the likes of Ducatic, Aprilia, and Honda with a little continued development. Put the TL1000R motor in a chassis with the weight and handling of the GSXR1000, and they would be trying to figure out how to compete with you. I would be one of the first in line at my local dealer.



The TL1000Â’s are excellent bikes for your first foray into the sport twins market, but the fact that there is room for improvement is well documented (refer to the reason for exclusion from this test as an example). From my point of view it seems that you consider these bikes a business failure, or have decided the market isnÂ’t there. I think the market for sport twin motorcycles is clearly there, and if you produce a superior product (something that you are obviously capable of doing), you will sell a lot of them. Additionally, if you do this at or near your present prices, I believe you will gain market share at the expense of the European makes, not your own excellent four-cylinder product line. I think the twin/multi-cylinder choice is driven more by preference, not merely price and performance. I like them both, but IÂ’ve found that IÂ’m fairly unique among my motorcycling acquaintances in that regard. For many, a twin is the only way to go, and if they have to spend $4000 to $8000 more to get it, so be it.



But thatÂ’s just me. It seems a shame to give up after your first try, especially when it was an inspired first try at that.




Captain_1 04-27-2002 12:07 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Good piece. I agree, the Duc is (still) beautiful but is a masochistic street ride. My only comment on the test is that basically stock bikes were compared. In the real world, we all ditch the stock exhaust and add a Power Commander. Having done this to my RC51, (plus a new seat and steel brake lines) the machine was totally transformed. Its hard to believe how MUCH MORE power was waiting to be untapped. The character of the bike is also vastly improved (more motor, less weight - I don't miss my Ducatis anymore).

While I know its not practical to suggest modifying borrowed test bikes, it would be interesting to follow-up with a comparison of privately owned machines that have been set up with the basics, i.e. exhaust, chip. I would lend you my 51, but I'm east coast based.


minime 04-27-2002 01:48 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
We have the titanium race pipe for the Aprilia (saves 12 pounds, Hackfu measure it Thursday) as well as the corresponding chip. JB's running around on the bike right now, and it sounds so delicious.



We'll see what Ducati can come up with as well as Honda. Maybe a follow-up after the track/drag-strip portion with resulting changes in weight/dyno charts.

Alan 04-27-2002 03:34 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Captain, I have a 2000 RC51 with Jardine street

pipes, but no PowerCommander. Does the

P/Commander richen the mixture? And does

it make a big difference in power?

Thanks,

Alan in Texas

DurangoKid 04-27-2002 03:42 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
John, John, John! Welcome aboard and I couldn't be happier. I paid my subscription fee long before you joined and your presence makes this site worth twice the current cost. Maybe I will just pay more so that I don't have to be harassed by the Buell Advertisement any longer.



I laughed out loud when I read your comment about signaling turns by honking. I test rode the standard Mille today, ok so it wasn't the R, but the horn (read: turn signals) required way too much concentration to operate. Exactly why does a motorcycle priced at $13k not have self-canceling turn signals? And how about a gear indicator? I can quickly access my lap times, top and average speed, but can't tell which gear I am in.



I can hear that fat-ass Boehm nowÂ… "Hey John, forget to take your Paxil?" Hopefully you have a lawsuit pending for that crap. But dude, tone it down a bit, eh? I was thrilled to see that the first portion of your twins test was the street ride, since that is where most of us ride. Honestly, who the hell enjoys commuting? So to criticize any of these bikes in LA rush hour traffic is irrelevant. We, at least I, couldn't care less. Street riding is the "non-track" portion of the test. Put the bikes in the back of a truck and ***** about not being able to enjoy them because you are stuck in traffic.



Wow! The Mille kicks ass. What a tasty morsel that 60-degree V-twin is? Admittedly, I hate the way it looks. I read a comment earlier comparing the Mille's bodywork to a '94 GSXR. The guy that wrote that should be on your staff, brilliant, and nothing could be further from the truth.



I rode the Falco also. I love the way the Falco looks. However, the claim that the Falco's engine has been de-tuned for the street is meaningless. It revs up like an SV650, albeit a bad ass SV650. On the other hand, the MilleÂ… well you have to ride one to understand the difference.



Now if I could just have the Falco, with the Mille motor, self-canceling turn signals, a gear indicator, a slightly more relaxed riding position along with the swing-arm from the MilleÂ… Aprilia, are you listening?


HolidayC 04-27-2002 04:36 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
I can't believe you guys can complain about riding bikes. If I wasn't in South Korea I would slap you. But it was a good article though. Some more pictures/videos/sounds would be nice too.

Captain_1 04-27-2002 05:40 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Yes, the Power Commander - properly programmed with the correct map - makes all the difference in the world. The stock ECU runs lean to meet emissions requirements. I have a full titanium Akrapovic system on my 2000 RC 51. Before installing the PC, the motor ran lean, especially noticeable when riding in cool temperatures (~45F). After uploading the proper map, the 51 was instantly transformed into an adrenaline pump. I cannot exaggerate the difference it made -- The bike is now SCARY fast and a lot more FUN to ride. The inside of the exhaust outlets also took on a black carbon film, previously grey before remapping the PC. Don't hesitate, get a PC for your 51, its one of the best investments you'll ever make.

Van 04-27-2002 05:55 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
There isn't a real sport bike on earth with a gear indicator or self cancelling turn signals.



Hell, there's almost no bikes left of any sort that have self cancelling turn signals...

rippedoff 04-27-2002 06:35 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
No, its not just you. I too would buy a TLR if it had been/ is developed. I have been saving up for the day when I will buy one of the Italians. However after many great years with a GSXR750, I would not hesitate on a comparable twin from them. Shame on Suzuki for not following through.



Martin.


badsac 04-27-2002 09:05 PM

I agree
 
The TLR is the only twin I have ever ridden. I was intoxicated with it when I first started riding it. The engine was awesome. But after the first set of twists I knew the thing wasn't for me. It just didn't handle very well.



I agree, that engine in a good chassis would be my next bike.



Why Suzuki refuse to build on what is still a good start is beyond me.

Alan 04-28-2002 03:44 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Thanks Captain, I will try one....

what's there website address?

Is your exhaust system REALLY loud?

Thanks again.

Alan

2000 RC51

2002 Gas Gas XC300

gibhunter 04-28-2002 05:13 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
And don't forget about including wet weight of these bikes. We all know to take the factory numbers with a bag (not a grain) of salt. You used to do this for your old reviews, then why not for the new ones.

Captain_1 04-28-2002 06:22 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Alan,

I bought mine from Kyle Racing in California. They also have some nice pieces for the 51. You can order direct from powercommander.com, but I would go to ebay - there were some listed this morning at $175.

The Akrapovic titanium system sounds AUTHORITATIVE. Its deeper-toned and louder than stock but not obnoxious. At idle, I would compare it to adding a powered subwoofer to your home theater -- it shakes the ground a bit, but not as much as the disturbance created by my Confederate Hellcat. The weight savings and delicious burnished gold/blue hue of hot titanium, is an additional bonus.


john 04-28-2002 09:24 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
I agree with suzuki needing a twin, but the TL motor would NOT work. They would need to stack the engine/gearbox quite a bit to make the motor short enough to use a conventional rear suspension. I think this would require an extensive redesign, just for the motor, nonetheless a brand spankin new chassis to put it in.

bip 04-28-2002 10:29 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
I must be the only one that thought this article was *****, i dont want to hear you *****, i want to read about the bikes.

bip 04-28-2002 10:30 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street, edited version
 
**** -> not good

***** -> complain

mph9146 04-28-2002 11:49 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
The Mille and the Falco share the same motor, except for the fact that the Mille has more compression. They share the same camshafts, but differ in their injection mapping. My dealer's mechanic has higher compression pistons, an RSV re-map, and SL Carbon exhaust, and his Falco can keep up with any Mille or 998 for that matter.



Hey MO, how about a naked twin comparo (Falco, SuperHawk, BMW R1100S)?












TheFox 04-28-2002 12:21 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
They have done all that and more...look at the V-Strom. TL1000 motor, new chassis (ok, so it's not a sportbike chassis per se, but it is a new frame) and it also hasa conventional rear suspension.



--Foxy






TheFox 04-28-2002 12:23 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
You got a Hellcat?



So ahhh....ummm...what's your address? And do you have a powered or manual garage door? I need to know so I know what tools to bring with me...



--The Fox


zx-6r_maniac 04-28-2002 01:45 PM

gotta love those street savvy columns...
 
they are as useless as you can get...long live burnsie...death to sport rider magazine too...i hate that arrogant jap. kent, schment

crg 04-28-2002 03:35 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Nice article, it's good to see you haven't lost the work ethic now that you're an internet journo (Re: The Buell Firebolt cover issue of MC which you pretty much wrote). A few more pics wouldn't hurt though. With subjects like that, it should be hard not to over do it.



MO: How about allowing an opt-in/ -out for the profanity filter. Civilized discourse aside...

msawyer 04-28-2002 05:01 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Generally I love this site and spend lots of time enjoying the fine content. But this time I've must complain with not the best article on Vtwins (very important to me). Gotta admit, your really getting astray with the creative writing and whining. You do have a lot more space that in a magazine col, but lets not waste it. Sometimes the creative bent adds to the color of what we all enjoy; sometime it distracts. I would personnally rather hear more about the way a growling twin make you feel. Which one has the best personality and soul. I use your input to shape my buying decisions, as I can affort to buy one of each to find out. Please try to keep a real world perspective that most of us weekend warriors and commuters can make the most off.

thanks

polishnightmare 04-28-2002 05:05 PM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
Good start to the article, but seemed to gloss over alot of things. Need more details. Where is the stats on the bikes. Like one reader said wet is something that is very useful. Also no dyno charts. I also agree with a previous reader would be willing to wait a little extra for a better article.

The_Aerodynamic_Head 04-28-2002 05:55 PM

You Jerks!
 
HEY!!



You said this was a TWINS shhotout. You didn't say it was a "sharp-edged, near-homologation, butt-numbing rack twins shootout".



I want the Beemer R1150RT retroactively included into the test right now, or...or, I'm gonna cry. And the GS500E. Everythng you MO guys do is bad and wrong...and don't bother trying to fix it, cuz that just makes it badder and wrongerer.



But seriously folks (hey, don't go changin'!), what about telling us how that nice Goose you just reviewed would fare? (It *is* the street portion.)



Or the Le Mans that's available to the plebians? Hey, it's an air-cooled, push-rod twin Italian bike with a French name....What could be more American that that?!

It used to be that Ducs were somewhat unique...as in rare. But here in the North Georgia mountains, it's Gixxer Thou, R1, R1, Gixxer, the occasional CBR, Duc, Duc, but no Goose. I hear that Guzzi is doing MUCH better now that Aprilia is their Daddy, and I like the looks, and I wonder if you guys can reccomend them in good conscience for a casual weekend rider/occasional commuter.



Keep up good work. I like the de facto norm that stats are now left to the stats section at the end of the article, rather than used as literary filler. And as Nature abhores a vacuum, I like that the body of the writing includes less hairbrained attempt at (nigh impossible) objective analysis, and gets on with the important work letting me see the bikes through your eyes, which is what I pay you for. Thanks.

rmiller 04-28-2002 06:05 PM

Re: gotta love those street savvy columns...
 
Well, everyone has an opinion I guess. And while we're on the subject of expressing them...



Not unusual I suppose that a pre-pubescent 600 wanker sees fit to dis Kent and the Sport Rider staff. I love smoking you arrogant middleweight children with my sport/touring VFR. Can always tell your type; those with the 1 inch bands of unused rubber along the edges of their tires and silly know it all attitudes. Nice that you were able to throw in a dollop of racial intolerance as well.



Have a nice day. I'll tell Kent you said hi.




The_Aerodynamic_Head 04-28-2002 06:18 PM

D'oH!
 
Didn't some Eye-Tale-Yen concern recently market their bikes to the U.S. of A.? Have you ever heard of the *RAPTOR*?!?!?

The Baby bike got the SV motor, and Papa Bike got the TL engine. Great Sooz twin motors, and really great Italian frames/chassis, and if your don't mind paying 4-8k more for the twin, are supposed to be quite good. And Suzuki is apparently making out like a Bandit (HA!!) just selling the motors.



But really, that "TL engine with a better chassis" idea you had was really great...especially three years ago when the Italians came up with it.

Huss 04-28-2002 09:26 PM

Beg to differ
 
Not so. I replaced my stock Tl1000s rear suspension with an Ohlins unit. Fits great, transforms the bike.

Huss 04-28-2002 09:38 PM

Re: You Jerks!
 
Yes! Yes! How about the Lemons? I mean LeMans. I need to know if it really is lacking in cornering clearance for the street (not track), and how the suspension copes with bumpy roads. I contacted the distributor about the Ghezzi and Brian, but I need to think about that some more seeing that it is $16500 and limited availabilty/choice of colours. Re. the LeMans, I just love the idea of simple, low maintenance, shaft drive, sporty feel with Italian style.

Probuzz 04-29-2002 01:03 AM

Re: Open Twins Shootout: The Street
 
i just want you guys to know that your expert testing and reporting is gonna force me into another costly purchase,i have been salivating like a dog looking at a steak reading about these fine twins,and i do believe when i saw the mille-r in the showroom,i detected just a bit of personal arousal in my nether regions.might be time to part ways with my well used and beloved 93 rr900,and step up to the world of the modern twin.please include more some commentary regarding the long lasting value of a r model,and i will be running off to the dealer to indebit myself once again . just when i thought i would slow down enough not to need another crotch rocket,they keep making them better n better,damn ,thought i would have grown outta these things by the time i hit 40,n get a nice slugslow cruiser to putt around on.guess not.oh well,better to regret something ya have done than something ya haven't


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