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Old 08-10-2005, 03:45 PM   #171
m_t_yeo
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Default Re: A Breath of Fresh Air and the GPTB

So ... a helmetless rider dies and his death has no effect at all on anyone else?



If you want to exert your freedom, prove that it won't affect anyone else. If you can't, then you don't get to exert the freedom. This is the essential argument behind libertarianism, isn't it? No one has the freedom to exert their will on someone else ... not even our helmetless rider.



I'll give you an example. A rider dies without a helmet. He lives alone, so he doesn't have even a family to be affected. He prepaid his funeral expenses, so the government isn't out the money to inter him. He died in the woods and never made it the hospital, so he didn't cost the health care system anything for storage or revival attempts. He owns his own home, so there is no landlord who lives without money for a month or two until he can get a new renter in. He doesn't use any services, so there are no providers like cable or Internet usage that go unpaid even though they were provided. He doesn't eat or drink, so there is no local grocery store or restaurant that lives without his influx of money. He rigged his bike to run on air, so there isn't even a gas station that will live without his spending. He never spoke to anyone in his life, so no one will ever be affected by losing his good advice or friendship. No one ever saw him, so no one will ever be able to claim that he served as a good example that is now gone.



I could go on forever, but unless you live in the wood by yourself, your actions ALWAYS affect other people and a death always leave a hole in a community to be filled. When your actions affect enough people or affect someone strongly, eventually a law will be enacted to curb that behaviour. The art of society, in sum toto, is deciding what gets restricted and who gets to make those decisions.
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Old 08-10-2005, 03:49 PM   #172
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Default These threads always....

.. devolve into arguments about taxes and premiums,



Ha! Motorcycle accident medical costs have no real effect on the premiums and taxes you pay. There simply aren't enough motorcyclists to affect the population. We'll never know the truth about it anyhow because insurance carriers are allowed to keep their data secret.



If you really want to affect medical costs then require helmets on soccer fields and on bicycles and then ban swimming pools, bathtubs, High School football and T-Mobile billboards with pictures of Catherine Zeta Jones on them along the freeway. Now we're talking real money.



PS. No matter how many safety laws and regulations and restrictions we implement your taxes and insurance costs for these things are never ever ever ever ever ever going to go down. Heck, we're still paying that telephone tax for the Spanish-American War.



So, why do people get all upset over the supposed costs? They're never going to realize one red cent of savings no matter how many laws they pass. It's just stupid to worry about it.





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Old 08-10-2005, 03:57 PM   #173
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Default Re: Deaths up since Florida helmet law repealed

I always chuckle about that "they owned slaves so they were full of shyt" attitude. As if the people who make that statement, if raised in a slave owners society, wouldn't be big defenders of slavery themselves. GWash and the boys were incredible radicals for their age. Far more radical and progressive than any of the reactionary socialists who attack them today. And if they'd lost they'd have been hung, not just had their tenure or govt grants threatened.
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Old 08-10-2005, 03:58 PM   #174
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Default Re: m_t_yeo is the man, Glad he is here...

Are you kidding, SBB? No, it wouldn't have made a difference.



I read a great statistic once ... 10% of society is altruistic, the other 90% will always care more about themselves than others. If you take that to be true, then 90% of the riders aren't going to care that their helmetless head splashes like a melon on the road one day, affecting their entire family and society in an instant.



They can't even step outside of themselves long enough to see how that act COULD affect someone else. It is inconceivable that anyone else could be affected, after all, because it is their head and they can't see past that point.



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Old 08-10-2005, 04:01 PM   #175
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Default Re: I see you ain't answered yet.....

By "later" he means the next geological Age.
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Old 08-10-2005, 04:03 PM   #176
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Default Re: These threads always....

I wouldn't personally argue for a helmet law based on insurance savings or health-care savings. I would argue like this:



Get an EMT or paramedic to describe how nauseating it is to scrape someones brains out of the radiator of a car and how if only everyone wore a helmet, this act wouldn't have to be performed as often.



Then, get a police officer to describe how painful it is to go to someone's family home and break it to the family that said exploded head belonged to their son or daughter.



Then, get a mother to explain how the family changed irrevocably with the loss of the son and how going down to ID what was left of his body was so traumatic that she hasn't slept right for months.



etc., etc., etc.



Money be damned, people get affected by this without any money changing hands at all.
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Old 08-10-2005, 04:05 PM   #177
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Default Re: You need some coffee dude

Better stop now before your head explodes. You are never going to get anywhere with the kook by using sound reasoning.



Your time is better spent thinking up spiffy sound bites and moronic slogans.



Or better yet, just blame it all on Bush.
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Old 08-10-2005, 04:16 PM   #178
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Default Re: A Breath of Fresh Air and the GPTB

You have just made the most cogent argument in favor of totalitarianism that I've yet seen on this site. Congratulations. On the basis of your "logic" we can slaughter children who get rheumatic fever because of the inevitable "costs" to society. Well done.



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Old 08-10-2005, 04:19 PM   #179
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Default Re: These threads always....

That, unfortunately, is a pretty good argument against motorcycling in general. Or driving a car, or working in heavy industry, or performing any other task that could result in gruesome death.



I look at it like this:



If you want to wear a helmet, fine. I do too, and would never thumb the starter button without a helmet strapped firmly into place.



If you don't want to wear a helmet, don't.



Your head, your choice.



Helmet laws save lives -- of that there can be no doubt. If helmet laws saved money, however, they'd just find a way to take it from you somewhere else.
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Old 08-10-2005, 04:21 PM   #180
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Default Re: Deaths up since Florida helmet law repealed

A couple of comments.



First, The statistics you cite don't speak to the severity of the accident. nor the number of people that wear helments compared to not. It is likely that it takes a more severe accident to kill someone with a helmet (giving you more of cushion). Also, it is likely that more people wear helmets (58% in '02), thus the differential.



Second, to me the issue is really about personal responsibility. If someone wants to ride without a helmet (or with one) they should have enough insurance to take care of themselves (and the 10K required in FL wouldn't even get you through a day). Don't expect me to pay for someone elses "freedom." NHTSA says that 29% of fatalities the cylist was drunk. Only 40% of those killed where alcohol was involved wore helmets. The issue isn't freedom, it is taking responsiblity for what you do. If someone can do that, then I don't care if they butt-nekkid down Main St. on a turbo Rocket III.
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