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Old 10-17-2003, 05:32 AM   #31
Gabe
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Default Standing Offer, Abe

I only respond to you when you say something with Limbaugh-like outrageousness. And so I am making you a standing offer. I will put you up in my house if you come out to California for a Sears Point trackday, which I will pay for. I will best your times by 10 seconds a lap at sears point on my 1982 FT500 Ascot with a near stock motor making less than 40 HP.



Sometimes you know what you're talking about, sometimes you don't. You have a limited range of experience in a place with a lot of slow riders on all kinds of bikes. Of course a rider will go faster on an R1 than an EX500. But a rider who learned how to ride fast on an EX500 will go faster than a guy who learned how to go slow on an R1 80% of the time.



How do I know this? I've done over 60 trackdays and racedays in the last few years and I've coached dozens of students. Most people with R1's and GSXR1000's and modern 600's for their first bikes go at a sub 250 ninja pace on the track. They blast up to 80mph on the straights and park it in the turns, wobbling their way to the apex with their knees stuck way, way out, trying to get those coveted scuffs on their sliders. They then wait until the bike is almost fully upright and then blast down the straight again. When they're in the pits, they make fun of the smaller bikes and talk about steering "dampeners".



You may be one of the people who is instantly fast on whatever he rides through a combination of balls and inherent talent- judging by the outrageous nature of some of your writings, I'd say you have a lot of bravado and a lot to prove on the track.



If that's the case you're safer on a smaller bike!
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Old 10-17-2003, 05:54 AM   #32
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Default Good Advice

I would love to have a YZF because it's basically purpose-built race machinery- that means there's a lot of good stuff available for it. I'll bet some searching would find you lots of factory race kit for that thing for cheap. Call Vance and Hines and any other organization that was racing the things. Find out the racers and mechanics and team managers, track them down with Google or something and ask them if they have any suspension, motors, etc. in their garages or sheds.



That bike, when fully developed had a fantastic reputation for handling. Yamaha raced it for what- 6 or 7 years? Strip it down to race trim, do the suspension and brakes, have it Compu-tracked, put slicks on it and watch your lap times plummet.



There's an AFM racer who was turning very respectable times on an '85 FZ750, racing an 85 GSXR750 (canadian model) in our Dinosaur class. Their times would have landed them mid-pack in the 750 Superbike race- against 03 GSXR's making 140 hp and weighing 380 pounds!



My friend Mikey Leister is 15th overall for the year in 600 production, a hotly contested class with over 70 participants. What's he riding? A 1992 CBR600F2 with stock exhaust and DOT tires that's been dynoed at an arm-stretching 72 hp, 20-30 horsies down on just about every other bike in the clss. The next oldest bike is a 99 R6. His times would put him in 4th place in 750 production! (go here: http://www.afmracing.org/downloads/SP1003.html and look for number 256)



Don't listen to people telling you you need a $10,000 bike to go fast- ride what you've got until you're sure it can't go any faster no matter how well you ride it. That's what sportriding is all about. Spending money on shiney stuff and than talking about it endlessly is what Harley people do.



PS, if you live in Northern California I have a few spots this year for racetrack instruction.
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Old 10-17-2003, 06:02 AM   #33
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Default Think about this

That the new 600's come with the same soggy, cheap, mismatched springs, poorly set-up shim stacks and crummy fork oil that 10 year old bikes did. Any serious rider is going to spend $1000 or so on suspension if he is REALLY going fast at track days.



Some older Japanese sportbikes are sow's ears, but not the YZF. It's a serious competition machine that can hold it's own against modern bikes with a little TLC. Same with the ZX-7R or RR. My F2 is definately a sow's ear.



So why do I pass 75% of the other riders at track days?
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Old 10-17-2003, 06:44 AM   #34
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Default Re: Upgrade or buy new?

If you put a lot of money in an old bike and you still are not satisfied you cannot recoup your investment and your money is gone. If you buy a new bike and not satisfied you can recoup most of your investment if you sell quickly. It's your money to loose. It's cheaper (not easier) to admit your not a great racer and enjoy what you got. Take the upgrade money and take some time off work and ride.
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Old 10-17-2003, 07:03 AM   #35
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Default Re: Upgrade or buy new?

The ZX-9 and FZR1000 were just as overweight and doggy as the YZF750.



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Old 10-17-2003, 07:09 AM   #36
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Default Re: Standing Offer, Abe

Well put.
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Old 10-17-2003, 07:54 AM   #37
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Default Re: Upgrade or buy new?

t_bell, it seems like there is a law of "diminishing returns" at work here. It's really very similar to the computer world where upgrading a model of just a couple years ago is prohibitively expensive AND still much slower than newer equipment.



There's really no reason not to keep your '93 YZF, especially for sentimental or practical reasons (i.e., not being able to get much out of it in the For Sale section). I should have kept my '89 FZR1000 (and several other bikes)! Still, I think you'd be happier in the end if you bought a newer bike for performance and appearance reasons. Remember that newer sports bikes also tend to have more aggressive, committed riding positions than older sports bikes, so if comfort is a big factor, ride before you buy to make sure.
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Old 10-17-2003, 10:07 AM   #38
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Default Re: Upgrade or buy new?

Tleighbell's problem with cornering speeds will not be solved by a new bike. Unless he is being held back by the capabilities of his machinery, better machinery will not help him go faster. Period.

An example:

I used to shoot rifles competitively, and I would see this exact same obsession with equipment every time I practiced or competed. It happened to me too. I shot my first few competitions, and I performed acceptably for my experience level, but of course I wanted to improve and run with the big dogs. I saw that I was using Gun Y. The top guys were using Gun X. Ignoring the massive experience gap between the top shooters and myself, I jumped to the conclusion that I could shoot a better score if I could just get the same equipment as the top guys. So, I rushed out and bought Gun X. The next match I showed up all proud with my new gun. I shot the same score as the match before. I wrote this off to teething problems with my new gun. The next match, I shot the same score again. The one after that I shot a lower score than the previous two. The problem, as I discovered, was my experience level, not my equipment. I went back to my old gun, shot for a couple of seasons and slowly improved, then eventually switched to the new gun when my abilities outpaced the capabilities of the old gun. The author should do the same thing. Until his abilities are beyond the capabilities of his current bike, a new bike is wasted money. He should save the money he will spend on a new bike and instead spend it on more track days.



This saying evolved out of similar situations to mine:



"(The key to success is) experience and mental focus, not equipment hocus-pocus."

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Old 10-17-2003, 10:45 AM   #39
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Default Re: Upgrade or buy new?

I've had similar experiences. I consistently outshoot my brother at the range. One of my pistols is an old Ruger 9mm. My brother went out and bought a high end Glock and I still outshoot him hands down. The difference is that I go to the range about 4 times as much as he does.



Still, if suspension upgrades are so expensive he might consider a later model used bike from someone who has already done the upgrades. Provided he can find one that isn't clapped out.
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Old 10-17-2003, 04:26 PM   #40
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Default Re: Upgrade or buy new?

thats funny.
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