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Old 10-10-2003, 04:13 PM   #111
TatdNPrcd
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Default Re: The CL sure was a lot of fun though wasn't it?

Ahahaha! "... look at modern Harley's and think they hold up pretty well in comparison." Cute.



One man's poison is another man's mead I guess. The only problem I had with mine was the torture rack often called the seat. God that thing was painful.
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Old 10-10-2003, 04:18 PM   #112
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Default Re: It's for your own good!

Yep. So did she. We bought it used as a starter bike and after 4,000+ miles we made $500 when we sold it for the V-Star 1100.
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Old 10-10-2003, 05:24 PM   #113
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Default Re: It's for your own good!

Everybody is different. My "training bike" was a brand new CBR600F3. That was 1995, and I still have it, and IÂ’m still in one piece. On the other hand, I had a lot of track time in cars, and knew something about restraint.



The viable, fair, alternative to what we do today is to have skills tests that must be passed before moving up to the next bike size/horsepower level. Basing the license on a certain level of proficiency rather than just time ensures that people really have developed the required skills, and allows them to progress at their own pace. However, from a practical standpoint, this kind of testing would be prohibitively expensive. Who would pay for it? Is it okay that it costs you, say, $3000.00 to get to an open class license? This is how pilots are qualified, after all. Since this whole discussion derives from carnage on the highways, perhaps motorcycling should be taken as seriously as flying.



All of the arguments are also valid for automobile licenses. ThereÂ’s a hell of a lot of unnecessary teenage carnage in automobiles as well. A high performance driving and safety school would do wonders to reduce these accidents, and the resources are there. Again, they are expensive, and most parents are unaware of the benefits. I remember at one "Track Time" school I attended, a father was there with his daughter. He decided this training would be a good idea, because she had crashed her car and two people were killed. I thought it was so sad that they didnÂ’t get her the training before the accident. What a difference that might have made.

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Old 10-10-2003, 07:09 PM   #114
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Default Re: It's for your own good!

I'd be willing to bet he didn't start on the 250 gp machine either. He's probably been riding since he could walk.
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Old 10-10-2003, 08:12 PM   #115
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Default why oh why .......

These arguments are ridiculous ....



Adding to the other relevant analogies, remember when someone was burned severly by mishandling coffee at McDonalds .. do we ban coffee ? do we legislate temperature limits ? should we test people before serving the beverage ? should you have have to spend 5 months drinking warm milk before graduating to coffee ?



(cover your ears socialists)



How about we insist on personal accountability .. and accept that be it stupidity, bad luck, or just their time - people are going to die ... every minute of every day. Whether or not there are sportbikes, guns, SUVs or even coffee. One of our strengths as humans is our compassion towards our fellow man (woman) but we cannot be blinded by it.



God forbid anyone here or their families or friends are ever injured through such an act, but let me tell you from experience spending your life blaming whatever for the accident will never make it better. Nor will it stop others.



Seems to me more people die fighting for religious beliefs than sportbike accidents, so how about a "Japanese/European style licensing system" for that ...



sigh... /rant off
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Old 10-10-2003, 08:42 PM   #116
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Default Facts!

Here's some factual info I've gleaned from the Hurt report, European agencies and other sources:



1. There is NO signifigant correlation between engine displacement and crashing rates anywhere! Not in the Hurt study, not in any study! What causes crashes and death? Lack of education, drugs and alcohol, breakin' the law. How much different is the rate for comprehensive insurance on an R6 from an R1? Not much, I'll wager (after you factor for price difference).

2. Rider education and helmet use are the most effective ways statistically to prevent crashes and injuries/deaths.

3. Skyrocketing insurance costs will shut down motorcycling far sooner than the "safety nazis" (as if there is such a group) will. As it is, I can only spring for basic liability, which means forget about riding anything worth more than $3k.



Therefore: Make an effective, real-world riding course (like they have in England) mandatory before you get your license, just like if you were buying a helicoptor or Learjet. It doesn't have to be Government-run or funded. The insurance industry would probably happily foot part of the bill! Dealers would like it too, as no dealer likes to sell bikes to those riders who will inevitably crash and never be seen again. They want you to come back every year for a new bike.



Displacement limits without rider training are stupid and worthless. With rider training they would keep many Americans away from motorcycling.



Tell the AMA you want mandatory rider training in all 50 states now!
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Old 10-11-2003, 01:00 AM   #117
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Default Re: What is experience?

I just took the MSF Experienced Rider Course last week and learned quite a bit, at least about identifying my bad habits. Some of my classmates boasted about their years of riding "experience" and their zillions of miles. That's OK, but amazing to me that some of them couldn't understand the basics of countersteering and other techniques for staying alive when the $hit hits the fan. One fellow learned a "hard" lesson during a stop-in-turn exercise. He low sided by braking hard while in the turn....at 10 mph! Thankfully nothing was injured but his pride.



People that are in perilous professions like law enforcement, pilots, EMT's, and racers of all kinds will tell you that repetitive training forms the basis of how they will react under emergency situations. Precisely the same holds true for our beloved pastime, IMHO.



Does time on the road equal "experience"?



I used to think it did. Pilots must undergo extensive proficiency training and testing to be "professional" pilots. How about "professional" riders?



Perhaps aggressive training and tiered licensing for newbies is the answer, but the approach should be proactive from within our industry, not reactive from a bunch of legislators. If left to their own devices, horsepower restrictions will most certainly result, because in their eyes, there wasn't a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g wrong with little Johnny Squid, it was that horrible overpowered sport bike that killed him. (I'm getting sick just thinking about it)



Heck, for one day of my time and a measly 50 bucks, I'm taking the course again next year. Like they say..."The more you know, the better it gets".



Ride Safe...veepster













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Old 10-11-2003, 03:07 AM   #118
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Default Re: It's for your own good!

Here's my take on this whole government thing: If you honestly believe that the government has "your" best interests in mind when they make new laws, please write your congressman now and let them know that you want 100% strip searches at air ports. But really, back to the subject at hand: In this country we have that wonderful little thing called freedom, and yes, sometimes it bites us in the a$$ when we have the freedom to kill ourselves. If you think we should limit 1st year motorcyclist, then lets do this thing completely, not just a bit here and there - let's make ALL people on the road be restricted. No more SUV's, sportcars, and 5000lbs station wagons for 17 yo Johnny Speed! Make people get REAL training. That's the PRIMARY reason why roads in europe are safer. It's not that their cars suck or are diesel or this technical reason or that technical reason. It's because people are TRAINED to properly operate their vehicles. Also: let me throw in this fun little fact...if the government has our safety in mind when we throw a leg over a motorcycle, why don't they care all those other times?? Statistically, most people have head injuries in and around their home. So let's have a law that makes everyone wear a safety helmet as soon as they wake up until they walk out the front door, and then when they come back put it back on until they go back to sleep. Sorry california---you have to keep yours on at night (earthquakes)....
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Old 10-11-2003, 04:37 AM   #119
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Default Re: It's for your own good!

I second your whole post caveman1952.





Furthermore, if the MSF, BRC etc. training is mandated, I would like to see them step up the difficulty of the skills-based test. I've just passed the MSF class having never rode a bike with an engine before with 95 points (5 points taking off because I slowed down too much before entering the 130 degree corner) and won the skill-based test of 24 riders, some new, but most of them with years of experience and out there to get an insurance brake. Now that's scary, c'mon, I'm sure I'm not Valentino in disguise!





Now that I'm looking to buy my 1st bike (yes, still looking for the right naked), I'm also trying to find a camp where I can (with my own equipment) really learn to ride. Do any of you MOrodians have any good suggestions?





Cheers!
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Old 10-11-2003, 06:10 AM   #120
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Default Re: It's for your own good!

I think we have enough government involvement in our lives now. Some people are just stupid if they want to strap there ass to a missle that will do 175mph and that is their first bike so be it. Just make sure their Mom or there wife is going to wipe their crippled butt. I just don't like the fact that I pay high insurance rates because of these idiots. My first bike was a honda 70 and I worked my way up dirt and street bikes for the last 30 years(age39) and currently ride 929rr.
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