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Old 11-05-2002, 09:35 AM   #51
dwr461
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

Guys,



"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."



Unknown.



Take care,



Dave
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:44 AM   #52
KPaulCook
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

You get 50 plus posts in less than 12 hours and you call it bad. You should be paying me.
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:47 AM   #53
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Default Re: Why WSB doesn't matter any more

Someone -- I think it was Keven Cameron in Cycle World -- awhile back explained the math -- as I recall, assuming a given maximum piston speed and then practical limits for boreXstroke ratios, the theoretical power potential of a 1000 twin and a 750 4 were approximately equal.



Early on in that formula, Ducati was clearly down on power and acceleration compared to Honda V4 and Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki I-4s, but they compensated by being easier to ride at the limit.



I think further technological advancement have pushed both of those parameters beyond those original limits, but even still, there is not any obvious power advantage for the V-twins.



I think that the diminishing interest in WSB from the manufacturer's perspective is as much market driven as anything -- Yamaha does not make a 750 sportbike and Kawasaki's is as old as dirt (still, BBoz gave Nicky a real run in AMA) -- the market has clearly settled on 600s and 1000s, leaving 750s in limbo.



The other issue is that WSB has gotten extremely expensive -- building a pure racebike that still technically qualifies as being production based is nearly as expensive as building a GP bike. As long as GP was for 2-strokes only, the manufacturers were motivated to play in WSB as it was the only international series that had much relevance to what they sell. With GP going to 4-strokes, the temptation to put all your eggs in that basket, rather than trying to support 2 seperate, very expensive programs was great. That is why the WSB promotors fought so hard against the new GP rules.



Now that AMA and WSB are opening up superbike to 1000 4s, I think you will see at least Suzuki and Kawasaki back in Superbike, and I expect Yamaha also.
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:49 AM   #54
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

Bigjames,



Fully loaded dress tourers would be my suggestion. What would be funnier than underwear, plastic body panels, electric shaver, windshield, GPS system, the latest Stephen King novel, and the unfortunate rider taking a tumble. The downed riders would darn sure make a concerted effort not to get hit by their fellow competitors. Oh yeah, sponsers would love it, Nicky Hayden (sp?) could have a Coke-a-cola in his cup holder and have the Coke advertising jingle playing on his bike's CD player while he wins the race. Heck, we wouldn't need little guys to race anymore. We could get big guys with beer bellys to race. John Goodman for example. This would in effect create a system that would unfairly give HD an advantage.



I think that I need to get out more.



Dave
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:54 AM   #55
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Default Re: Dull like a razor.

Like 600 SuperSport?
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:56 AM   #56
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

Good example -- I think that the rules allowing 500cc 4-strokes in 250 MX and 250 4 strokes in 125 MX were on the books for awhile -- ont he assumption that the greater power/cc of the oilers, plus lighter weight etc would result in rough parity. It took Yamaha to apply the lessons learned elsewhere to introduce light, quick-revving 4 strokes that tood advantage of this rule.



In MotoGP, this year 500 2 strokes competed with 990 4 strokes. Why isn't KPaul screaming about how unfair this is? Actually, most commentators felt that the 2-strokes would still be fastest for the first season -- reports were that Rossi was pi$$ed that he had to switch.
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:59 AM   #57
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Default Point worth repeating. Don't call it logic call it extrapolation

Unless the other Japanese makers come to play (Kawasaki has already said no, Yamaha too) does it matter if Ducati dominates a field full of Ducatis, a lone RC51 and a lone Aprilia? No one wants to play in a field (WSB) where the rules aren't fair ....they have taken their toys to MotoGP.



"To pronounce the death to the V-Twin in Road Racing based on MotoGP is not logical, as the V-Twin was never alive in this venue"



Here is the logic/extrapolation: MotoGP rules are closer to a level playing field and the V-Twin was abandoned from the start. (one can argue that a Twin pulse is a V-Twin since a pair of cylinders have the same firing cycle). Now that WSB is addressing their rules with letting better displacement 4s enter the picture doesn't that mean that V-Twins will lose their edge. Hence become obsolete. Is that so far fetched????

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Old 11-05-2002, 10:00 AM   #58
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

Lets get personal shall we. You should read Burns column on Arguments for stupid people. Seems to apply with you eh Davy.
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Old 11-05-2002, 10:03 AM   #59
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

>>Mr. Forni, the guy who designed the thing<<



I don't think so -- I quote from the article:

"Chief Testing Engineer for Ducati, Andrea Forni" -- nothing says anything about him designing the thing.
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Old 11-05-2002, 10:03 AM   #60
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

Twin pulse is V-Twin because of the firing order. Just cause the power stroke has two cylinders instead of one it still functions like a V-Twin.
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