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Old 11-05-2002, 07:11 AM   #41
longride
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

"Racing rules are inherently arbitrary, doesn't matter if it is NASCAR, F-1 or the local go-cart club, and the successful contestants must always make the choices which best exploit those rules."



Could you please explain this simple concept to KPaul? If you get him to understand it even in the least, you will have our undying gratitude forever.

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Old 11-05-2002, 07:21 AM   #42
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Default Re: Go for it KPaul

Why is it so hard for people to understand that the rules for differences in engine displacement in SBK were written to create a level playing field?? Tthe RC45 in it's last year (which was 99 i think) made more horsepower than last year's ducati. According to Cathcart, who test rode it for Racer magazine, it was making 185hp. I think that's approximately what Bayliss' bike is making now.... (the 998R, not the desmosedici) and to drive the point home, the RC45 almost always had the highest trap speeds at Monza, Hockenheim, etc (the big horsepower tracks)

So saying that twins were given an unfair advantage due to displacement is a lot of bull. (The rules were made so that the series would have lots of manufacturers with all sorts of bikes competing more or less equaly. In that I think they suceeded) Granted, when SBK began, there were even weight advantages given to the twins, which I don't necessarily agree with, and the rule makers were by and large italian, but of late I think the rules were fair. Haga could/should have won the championship when Foggy got hurt, on an "inferior" 750. Mladin won numerous championships on an inferior 750, E. Bostrom last year showed how "inferiror" an old 750 is....



and as far as the liter fours dominating next year, look at the BSB series, (the liter fours are allowed there this year) where's the GSXR1000 or the R1???? the series is still led by the "inferior" V twin....



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Old 11-05-2002, 08:00 AM   #43
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Default Re: Why WSB doesn't matter any more

But that is not a rule only open to Ducati, it is open to any manufacturer. The real issue is that Japanese manufacturers have traditionally manufactured inline fours and on account of that heritage have developed manufacturing processes optimized to building the standard Japanese I-four. Ducati traditionally built V-twins and were fortunate that their V-twins were given an opportunity to compete (Ducati was on the verge of collapse in those days BTW).



Honda thought they had no reason to build V-twins but once Harley-Davidson cruisers and Ducati World Superbike victories showed Honda that V-twins have a place, Honda built V-twins that did quite. So there is no reason for you to get your panties in a wad just because twins have an advantage over I-fours under the current World Superbike rule set.

Recall that AMA Superbike will allow 1000cc inline fours next year.



Personally, I prefer V twin bikes (such as Ducati make) because they are narrow. Even the RR954 feels like a draft horse compared to the narrow Ducs. If Ducati or Honda twins were as light weight as comparable Japanese fours, I would certainly not be interested Japanese I-fours (despite the typically lower cost of I-fours).
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:07 AM   #44
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

Don't look at me. I sure didn't approve the news item.
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:21 AM   #45
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

I didn't mean that 4-strokes are inherently inferior. I meant that 4-strokes are hopelessly outclassed by two strokes of equal displacement. It's just an example of how rules are tweaked by racing associations so as to get as many people competing as possible.



Obviously with the Feds being determined to eliminate two-strokes bringing in the 4-strokers is a smart move.
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:32 AM   #46
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

Have heard it before, hearing it again. Twins ain't singles! Given time and unlimited resources, they can be made competitive. But with only a two year window to develop a new GP bike, 4's are the cheap(er) quickest way to get the job done. If MotoGp (like Dorna and Bernie can get anything right) were to do it correctly, there would have been a several year window to develop the new bikes and both 500 2 strokes and 1000 cc 4 strokes would race together in serperate classes for a year or two! But noooooo, that would be two easy.



Twins rule the cruisers, street sport bikes and most real world riding. Sure, in MotoGP they are not competitive, yet, but WHO CARES! THESE THINGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH STREET BIKES! SBK on the other hand does, twins will rule there and AMA Super Bike for years to come. But they still have nothing to do with real world riding (except for the bikes they are very loosely based on).



Anyhow, I ride large touring bikes. Been riding 4 cylinders for a while now (but kept that last old twin with a side car attached to it as it refuses to quit running), going back to a twin (as soon as it gets here). They are simpler to maintain, have plenty of go, have soul and sound one helluva lot better than a 4 while going down the road (properly muffled) IMHO.



What we really need in racing is a full dresser class! Big BMW K's, Gold Wings, Electra Glides, Voyagers, Ventures and the like! Now that would be interesting and the crashes would be spectacular! Just imagine the saddle bags, fairings and body work going EVERYWHERE!



It would be glorius!
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:42 AM   #47
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

I agree 100% because under these rules the twin the three and the mighty four seem a little weak.So for 2002 if you are not currently riding a rcv211 you are not riding the baddest road racing machine.This will probably last untill the rules change or someone comes out with a better 5 or 6 cylinder bike.Man are we getting out of ninja 600 territory or what.
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Old 11-05-2002, 08:52 AM   #48
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Default What we really need in racing is a full dresser class!

Now we are on to something! Maybe race em two up as well!



Hey, the trickle-down effect on the bikes we actually can buy would be great -- improved cornering clearance, lighter weight, etc .....where do I sign up!
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:29 AM   #49
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Default I think he trick you KPaul-san

I made the same F-1 point in another post as well. Quite frankly, watching the Honda V-5 dominate MotoGp wasn't all that exciting.



Thank you for explaining things even more clearly than I did.
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Old 11-05-2002, 09:31 AM   #50
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

What an ignorant response. Surely everything evolves as time goes by. In this case, road going motorcycle racing events once challenged each other on temporary racing venues, in this case, roads. Those have evolved into capture type racing, or circuits that resemble the road going challenges of the original road races. The term "road racing" only implies the surface type of racing, not the locale.
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