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Old 11-05-2002, 05:49 AM   #31
KPaulCook
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Default Re: Why WSB doesn't matter any more

"Name one rule that has "Ducati" in it for any special favors."Limiting inline fours to 750cc. Honda built the RC51 because of this rule.

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Old 11-05-2002, 05:52 AM   #32
KPaulCook
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Default Leave my wife out of this.

I would appreciate you leave my wife out of this. She is Irish by the way. You always get personal when you can't come with something intelligent to say.

.
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Old 11-05-2002, 06:05 AM   #33
Buzglyd
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Default Re: Leave my wife out of this.

I suppose my above post didn't qualify as intelligent. You're not exactly the poster child for intelligent posts here.



And I'll leave your lovely wife out of further discussion per your request.



I'll be at Laguna on my inferior, outdated, Ducati V-Twin.



By the way, the bastards are now charging a four-night minimum for camping so be prepared to get screwed.
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Old 11-05-2002, 06:11 AM   #34
rsheidler
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Default Exactly!

Yep! I went back and reread the article (which, by the way, was pretty lacking in any meaningful information -- makes even some of the more lame articles on this site look good in comparison) and there was not reference to the twin pulse being at any power disadvantage -- only comment was about reliability. It does seem possible that the peak stresses would be much greater with 2 big cylinders firing at once.
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Old 11-05-2002, 06:15 AM   #35
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Default Go for it KPaul

I think KPaul's point is a pretty clear one. Unless you specifically tilt the playing field in favor of twins (with 33% more displacement for instance), in a paved track racing environment (where only objective performance output matters), twins aren't competitive. Superbike is a prime example of such tilted rules. MotoGP isn't.



I admit, his tone is inflammatory, but after being consistently personally insulted for finding twins lacking (relatively!) performance wise, I think he's been sufficiently provoked to justify it.



If you guys like twins, great. If you find they do what you want them to, great. If they provide you with all that purely subjective lovin' that just gets you right there... oh yeah baby, right there... great for you. Hell, some people prefer Royal Enfield Bullets... Just don't mistake your emotional attachment to a certain engine technology (or a particular manufacturer - cough cough, Ducati...) as an indication of (objectively measurable) superiority.



And if you scoff at anyone's notion that there should be at least a vague correlation between price and performance, again, go for it. Bully for you! Have fun on your F4 Strada. You'll be the envy of the country club, no doubt! I only ask that you don't let the monocle pop out of your eye when you get smoked by the night manager at McDonalds riding a plebian R1.



Some of you should just learn to accept the notion that not everyone in motorcycle land is as impressed with your 998 as you are. Must you break out your flame throwers and personal attacks each and every time someone with more pedestrian tastes refuses to bow before your mighty corse red rolling roman alters? That doesn't include me, by the way, inferior engine technology aside, those things look like sex on wheels...
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Old 11-05-2002, 06:15 AM   #36
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

I just want to know who decided this was "news".
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Old 11-05-2002, 06:45 AM   #37
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Default Re: Go for it KPaul

His argument/flame bait didn't hold water from the beginning because Ducati's MotoGP entry never was a V-twin. They have been experimenting with different firing orders of the V-4.



I don't think any V-twin owner would argue that I-4s are inferior or make less power. I think MotoGP and Superbike have two different missions. MotoGP should be a war of technology, experimental engines (V-5), etc.



Superbike should be based on production machinery so the manufacturers can win on Sunday, sell on Monday. With the popularity of 1000cc I-4s, the rules package should be construed to make the field as level as possible so V-twins and I-4s can compete and we can root for our favorite brand.



I'm not a huge NASCAR fan but they have made incremental aerodynamic changes periodically for each of the manufacturers benefitting the series tremendously.
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Old 11-05-2002, 06:47 AM   #38
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Default Re: Death of the V-Twin in Road Racing

KPaul:



To pronounce the death to the V-Twin in Road Racing based on MotoGP is not logical, as the V-Twin was never alive in this venue.



From very early in the feasibility study stage, Ducati and Aprilia, along with anybody else looking at jumping into the new MotoGP pool, concluded that within the rule framework, a v-twin was not going to be competitive. Ducati did, for a time, pursue an oval piston v-twin, but this is essentially a twin pulse v-4 anyway.



There is no question that in terms of obtaining peak power from a given displacement, more cylinders are usually an advantage, until you reach a point of dininishing returns.



If the rules did not limit number of cylinders, you would see even more than the 5 Honda and others have chosen -- the limit would probably be what could fit within the space available. As an example, I cite the GP bikes of the early 60's -- I believe that Honda ran 6 cylinder 250 4-strokes until the rules were changed.



Does anybody seriously think that Honda would build a v-5 if the rules were not stacked to favor that configuration? In the current MotoGP rules, 4 and 5 cylinder bikes are allowed the same minimim weight, while 6's would require more. If Honda felt that the v-5 was inherently a superior configuration,why have they not built one for the road?



This is kinda like Formula 1, where the V-10 configuration is dominant -- from this,you could argue that V8's and V12's are obsolete configurations -- if so why do Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes (who are the main engine builders in F-1) continue with these obsolete pieces of $hit.



Racing rules are inherently arbitrary, doesn't matter if it is NASCAR, F-1 or the local go-cart club, and the successful contestants must always make the choices which best exploit those rules.



The death of the V-twin, if it is to happen, will be in Superbike (World or local), and with the rules now being phased in, that could happen -- we will just have to wait and see. I do note, however, that Honda will continue to campaign the RC-51 in superbike -- since they have no sentimental attachment to the V-twin configuration as does Ducati or Aprilia, I assume that they are not yet ready to give the configuration it's last rites.
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Old 11-05-2002, 07:05 AM   #39
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Default Re: Why WSB doesn't matter any more

While it MAY be true that the RC51 was motivated largely by WSB rules, it was essentially an evolution from the clearly street-oriented VTR, which certainly was not dictated by WSB rules. Suzuki also has a significant lineup of sport-oriented bikes with v-twin configuration (V-Strom, SV650s and SV1000s) whose existence has nothing to do with arbitrary rules. I assume that Honda and Suzuki selected this configuration for logical, market oriented reasons.
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Old 11-05-2002, 07:08 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why WSB doesn't matter any more

If the rule was that limiting then anyone could build a twin and win the championship, right? Harley didn't, Aprilia didn't, Suzuki didn't (remember the TL1000 fiasco?) and MotoGuzzi didn't. Did I leave anyone out? I guess even with that rule it takes lots of engineering skill and development to win a championship. Give Ducati the Honda cash reserves and they could easily outpace them. Think Ferrari in F1 auto racing.
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