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Old 01-30-2001, 06:12 PM   #81
Lincoln
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Default R E A D T H I S A N D W E E P

First, let's make something absolutely clear - the late Mr Honda is worm-food, pure and simple. He is not looking down on us, but rather up at us, although his eyes must have been digested by lower life forms by now. I would have respected Mr Honda a whole lot more if he hadn't put pride in front of common sense. 2strokes are unbeatable, but yet he dragged the good Honda name through the mud trying to do the impossible in the late 60's. I cannot wait to see the publics reaction when the 2strokes destroy this 5cylinder monstrosity. lets see - an NSR500 engine has about 16 moving parts aside from its transmission. i bet this 5cylinder behemouth has at least 100, if not more. following the laws of probability, the 4strokes will suffer far more engine failures, cost far more money, and most likely be the cause of several fatalities before Honda once again comes to their senses. but Honda's name will still be gold. go figure
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Old 01-30-2001, 07:02 PM   #82
eyego
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Default Re: Honda Reveals Four-Stroke GP Motor!

Time to read the tea leaves...



I can't wait to see what Kevin Cameron makes of this. A couple of things jump out to my eyes. Notably the horsepower when divided by the displacement. If Honda isn't fibbing (much) we are talking about 280hp/liter.



That is deep into the neighborhood of Formula One cars. As Honda has developed the RC211V while also building an engine to return to Formula One, the two probably share a lot of research and design.



The first question I have is how high does Honda have to run this engine to get north of 200hp? The top F1 engines need more than 17,000 rpm to generate 250hp/liter. What are we talking with the RC211V? Eighteen? Twenty-thousand rpm, anyone?



To get these engine speeds, F1 engines first abandoned mechanical valvesprings for pneumatic cushions. It is a proven technology and I'll bet it is has been on the Honda GP engine from the first prototype.



At this level of engine speeds, even titanium has too much reciprocating mass. In F1 engine designers began experimenting with beryllium and other exotic metal with good success. But these metals also have toxic properties and have been banned for the 2001 season. Perhaps Honda is continuing to use them for its motorcycle program until the FIM catches up?



The engine speeds make me suspect different displacements between the cylinders. While this might give the engine a boost in midrange (15,000rpm?!?) thanks to the longer stroke of the smaller pistons, balancing it and designing a crankshaft that could handle the different loads at 17K would be mean feat of engineering.



To say nothing of the cost. If you think 500GP racing at the factory level was expensive, you ain't seen nothing yet. Including development costs, the little engine at the top of the page will push the $1 million Honda charges to lease a complete NSR500 for an entire season. The four stroke will also have a much shorter life. (Current F1 engines need a complete overhaul after every weekend. The block and heads are beyond service after three races and are sent to the shredder.) When it lets go, and it will, the chances of salvaging any parts from a 15,000rpm-plus failure are nonexistant.



The Honda RC211V and upcoming Yamaha engine are interesting engineering exercises. But without a billion dollar television deal like Formula One has it will only reduce the level of competition in Grand Prix. And the best hope for the future of street sportbikes remain the two strokes the GP's are leaving behind.



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Old 01-31-2001, 02:58 AM   #83
suzukis-suck
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Default Re: Honda Reveals Four-Stroke GP Motor!

Lincoln is soooo smart. I only have two engineering degrees and have followed all racing for over ten years. If two strokes are so great why are they changing the rules?



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Old 01-31-2001, 03:09 AM   #84
suzukis-suck
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Default hey eyego, why don't you write some more?

I disagree totally with your comments. The reason the rules are being changed is to make things more affordable and more competitive and it will do that.



Your comments about RPM required don't make sense! The new GSXR1000 has the 750 head and valve train. With its own specific head it will produce 185+ hp in street trim. What is so hard to believe if you added a cylinder and got 230 hp?



THERE IS NO WAY THEY WOULD CHANGE THE RULES IN ORDER TO MAKE THINGS MORE COMPETITIVE AND IT COST MORE TO GO RACING!



NO WAY!



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Old 01-31-2001, 03:27 AM   #85
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Default Re: Has anybody heard about the Kawasaki!

The real factor in tires is sidewall abuse from torque, not HP. Engines with hard-hitting torque pulses flex the wall to pieces after a while (another advantage to more cylinders - smoother power delivery). Don't forget the torque multiplication through the drivetrain: Look at a typical LS1 camaro Z28: 3:07 1st gear, 3.42 rear end, the effective torque multiplication is 10x.. so about 330lbft of torque gets translated into 3300ft lbs at the wheel.. no wonder these cars need traction control!
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Old 01-31-2001, 04:02 AM   #86
dirtybmxr
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Default Re: I had one that leaked oil at less than 10K mi...

My point was that while you may have had a problem with yours, they are generally known to be at least as high quality as any other motrcycle out there. My personal experience has proven this to be the case as the list of Hondas I've owned is long, and the list of recalls and mechanical warranty problems has been limited to one fuel pump on one Hawk GT, which my dealer changed for me on a Sunday (they are closed on Sunday).
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Old 01-31-2001, 04:06 AM   #87
worn_patella
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Default Re: Honda Reveals Four-Stroke GP Motor!

I was type O than (then ... but don't notice it because it was an error) my RH and I seperated ... now i'm so negative ...
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Old 01-31-2001, 04:43 AM   #88
CYCLE_MONKEY
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Default Re: Four strokes=GOOD

I really don't think they're dead. They're still the fastest bikes out there. As for the opinion that GP technology doesn't trickle down, where do you think current 4-strokes aluminum swingarms, aluminum frames, aluminum wheels, disk brakes, and the current 4-stroke frame geometry came from? As far as 4-stroke technology trickling down from the pinnacle (F1), when was the last time you saw carbon fiber chassis, carbon brakes, titanium gearboxes, pneumatic valve gear, or electricallly-shifted sequential manual gearboxes in normal road cars? McLaren and Ferrari are the only ones trickling any of that technology down. Also, there is no imbalance in the rules to favor the 2-strokes. It actually favors 4-strokes by allowing them almost twice the displacement. @-strokes rule the roost because the motor is simple, powerful, small, and with a more compact mass than the 4-strokes, allowing optimum placement in the frome. The 4-stroke motor is much taller, to accomodate the valves, cams, and sprockets/gears.
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Old 01-31-2001, 04:51 AM   #89
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Default Re: Honda Reveals Four-Stroke GP Motor!

2 engineering degrees, huh? Let me guess, basket-weaving, and packaging, right? From the Sally Strothers University, right? Tell me, where exactly is this Yamaha been doing this? What's your source?
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Old 01-31-2001, 05:06 AM   #90
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Default Re: hey eyego, why don

First, the new Suzuki might make 150-155 hp at the crank, and redlines at 12,500. So, how could you get another 80 hp from it? Spin it faster. current F1 engines make around 800hp from 3 liters displacement, and rev to 17,000+, yielding 266hp/liter. So to get 230hp from less than a liter, you have to use the same type of engineering. Which means the same kind of costs. Duh! Here's one for ya Einstein: how can an engine that has more parts, made of more exotic (read: expensive) materials to withstand the rpm required, actually be cheaper? Soon as you figure that all out, call Bernie Ecclestone. I'm sure all the F1 guys would like to know that they've been wasting hundreds of millions of dollars each year, when you had the answer all along.
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