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Old 07-18-2001, 09:12 PM   #11
Gabe
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Default Oh, We're an Expert in Moto-Economics, Are We?

I don't know how much Harley invested in this motor, but BMW spent about $200 million bucks designing their oilhead motor, and EX-celcior Henderson spent a similar amount of (other people's) money to put out their new bike.



What makes a modern, liquid-cooled motorcycle so cheap to make? There is a lot of very expensive design and componentry in there. Are you saying a loaded Hyundai Elantra really costs that much more to make? Why? Because of the cardboard inside the doors? All the extra steel?



Plus, they are only making 11,000 of them. I think $17k is cheap for such a limited run.



But the bottom line is this: in a free market, goods are sold at the prices people pay. If people buy 11,000 of these things for $17k apiece, then thaey are indeed worth that much.



If you are concerned about price gouging, stop eating fast food. $3 worth of "Value Meal" costs maybe $.40 to produce, counting rent, materiels, and pimply, quasi-child labor.



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Old 07-18-2001, 09:16 PM   #12
ngall
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Default Re: Dyno Chart, V-Rod Style

Sportster cheap? How 'bout $9k+ for a 1200 with a little bit of chrome (that's what my friend's bike MSRP was). You can get a lot more bike for that kind of money than what the Sporster offers. Same with this thing I'm sure. 107 hp is impresive, but for that kind of dough? Sheesh.
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Old 07-18-2001, 10:01 PM   #13
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Default blah

11,000 units at $17,000 isn't nearly as good as good as 30,000 units at $10,000.



At $10,000, I'd go ahead and put my '00 SV650 down as a deposit right now.



at $17,000.... I'd go buy that Subaru WRX I'd been longing after (granted, I'd still be $7,000 away from the WRX).



Harley's got something good. Too bad they're keeping it out of the hands of so many people. Imagine how many people who buy japanese bikes because of the price would convert to buying American.





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Old 07-18-2001, 11:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: blah

Actually it turns out that 30,000 units at $10,000 is only better than 11,000 units at $17,000 if the cost to produce the bike is less than $5,947. I'm not sure that Harley can produce these bikes that cheaply.



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Old 07-19-2001, 02:02 AM   #15
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Default Re: Dyno Chart, V-Rod Style

Nice look. And the Dyno shows Porche did a good job on the engine.

Maybe Porche charged Harley an arm and leg, so the price is to offset the Porche factor. Come to think about it $20, 25, 30K is cheap for a Porche.

But the Japanize and Italians do (much) better with less, and they don't cost as much.

Can't wait til Buell gets a hold of the engine.



Tom

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Old 07-19-2001, 02:06 AM   #16
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Default Re: Amazing!? Why?

Bur Rock, you have to remember, the ZRX1100, 1200 and the big Bandit all weigh considerably (something like 150lbs) less than the new Harley's porky 615 lbs. It's the power/weight ratio that really matters, not the numbers on the dyno. If you put the QE2 on a (really big) dyno, you'd get HP numbers in the thousands, but how fast is that ship really going to go?
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Old 07-19-2001, 02:06 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sleepless nights

Please keep in mind that ALL Japanese auto and motorcycle manufacturers are subsidized by the Japanese government to keep unemployment low. This is one of the ways the Japanese keep prices low.
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Old 07-19-2001, 02:33 AM   #18
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Default subsidy?

so why is japanese unemployment running rampant?
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Old 07-19-2001, 02:39 AM   #19
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Default something to consider

each bike on the market does NOT pay its own way. IF this wer the case, I don't think anyone woul dbe able to afford a GSXR . the R and D is horriblly expensive, and there is no way for those bikes to pay their own way in sales. Every time someone buys a 800 intruder (made with almost no new tooling since the early 80's) they subsidize the Gixxer line. Same with HD, the sporty aline, and the rest of the cruisers are expected to cover R and D costs for the other bikes, includeing the VR and the V rod.
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Old 07-19-2001, 02:46 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dyno Chart, V-Rod Style

>>'Course, it is very difficult to get anything like the power shown on that chart from an air-cooled v-twin<<



Buells having been coming real close (and/or exceeding it with minor mods) for years. Basically using an ancient aircooled pushrod Sportster engine with hotter heads and a big airbox. The reason you haven't seen faster cruisers from Harley OR the imports is that their market research has (in the past) said their customers didn't want them any faster. At least not stock. That is changing. Harley is responding. Though they've made their share of blunders H-D hasn't stayed around a century by doing *everything* wrong, though to read the posts from their detractors here one might think that.



As for who's going to buy it IMO that's a no-brainer. The same affluent people who buy so many of their current models. You should see how they're raving about it in all the online groups for owners of very expensive cars. The "die-hards" are people who very often buy used Harleys anyway, and they will accept the V-rod after it trickles down the food chain a few years, just like they did the Evo which they hated at first too.
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