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Old 04-19-2005, 02:22 PM   #41
pattonme
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

MSF isn't interested in real training. They go to considerable ends to eliminate anyone who does and make like difficult at the Dept of Transportation level. If they cared about training we'd have mandatory graduated licensing and we'd have over-the-road training the likes done by Japan and Britain.



The BRC is a ripoff from HD's Rider's Edge curricula. Tells you something, don't it...
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Old 04-19-2005, 02:55 PM   #42
pattonme
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Default Competition Good! Monopoly/Mafia Bad!

Ok, so rider training could be considered, however loosely, to be a public good. But if you can freaking afford a $3000+ motorcycle then you DAMN WELL can afford to pay the full $300 rate for a weekend class so you're not a total screwup and "medical burden to society" (yes, yes, I know). The reduction in the insurance premiums alone would recoup the cost. And some organizations Honda Rider's Club among others, will refund your cost or a portion thereof upon successful completion.



Even in the state synonymous with rampant graft and gov't corruption (a certain blue state that neighbors a lake), we don't have a conflict of interest issue although the commercial school certificate does NOT obviate the need for taking the Sec of State motorcycle "test" *cough cough*. If anything, the free/$20 state-run programs which are exempt are easier to game. Despite however much the chattering nabobs of moral degredation like to assert, instructors are a proud lot, honoralble, and men and women of sufficient integrity. Just because there are s***** out there who have no problems taking bribes and being a common criminal, the rest of society is thankfully not so corrupt.



The MSF desperately needs a swift kick in the jewels and anything that will blow their mafia-organization sky high needs to happen. I give Oregon and Utah massive up's. And when more states refuse to kowtow to MSF's tactics I'm sure those with independent curricula will be DELIGHTED to share their methods and materials. Heck, I'll donate my time to translate training materials written in Japanese to English.



I've trained riders for a while and we have much to learn from the Japanese and British. Unlike the state-run programs which are held "hostage" by MSF more often than not, commercial outfits are able to innovate and adapt. Liability insurance costs won't let us do on-the-road training, but we can at least bring some of the best overseas drills to our little area of the USA.



It says a lot to me when ridership (ok, scootership) takes a massive dive after instituting a helmet law (per Italy) such that I have to conclude USA motorcycle users are by far a joke and unserious about their 2-wheeled vehicles. You don't have to ride in snow, ice, or 2F cold to be serious but the current 'norm' is laughable. Today I watched a guy having a todo over wear scuffs in the black body panel on his KTM 950 adventure. You know, where his leg would rub against the side of the bike?
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Old 04-19-2005, 02:58 PM   #43
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

You forget that they make $7K cruisers too, as well as Buells.
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Old 04-19-2005, 03:08 PM   #44
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

1st, you will never be 10% as good as Nicky. 99.99% of us will never be, so don't it personally.



If the rear-brake only exercise was explained to you that way I am very sorry because the instructor failed to convey the point. The idea is to 'experience' in a limited and semi-benign environment how to handle a locked up rear wheel. Why the exercise in the first place? Because a HUGE percentage of riders don't know how to use their brakes correctly to save their life and so in a panic, just stomp on the rear brake because that's what they do on their 3000lb cages, with the predictable results.



Now you can debate the value of the exercise given we're trying to teach them to do braking the right way the first time, and that's why it was tossed. Plus, as a "dangerous" excercise, the perceived benefit vs risk was deemed of too little value. Guess it's best for the newbie to feel a sliding rear tire for the first time on his 500lb behemoth. Now that'll be a highside worth a few action photos. But it still lives on in the ERC which is probably just as well.



If you want to decry the dumbing down of the curricula, go ahead and complain about the braking in a curve exercise where before the instructor threw the stop signal. Now students stop when they feel like it and I have to go to considerable effort to get them to go thru the curve like they mean it and THEN decide to stop. I'm also guilty of unforgivable crimes like leaving those 4 extra cones on the range so the course looks exactly like it did on the previous drill and thus they know how to execute it.
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:08 PM   #45
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

here's a clue: Texas is also a donor state. We're both sending our dollars off to play in other states.



Cite: http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxingspending.html



I'd like to see your cite for "best educated most productive work force". All of the data I can find lists Massachusetts as the best educated and most productive work force. But, most of that's quotes from Massachusetts' own PR.



To bring this thread back on topic, here's a cite for the assertion that the California motorcycle class is both state managed and state subsidized.



from the California Vehicle Code section 2932:



2932. The commissioner may, through contracts with other public

agencies or with private entities, do all of the following:

(a) Provide financial or other support to projects aimed at

enhancing motorcycle operation or safety, including, but not limited

to, rider training programs. The rider training programs shall

comply with criteria which the commissioner, in consultation with

other state agencies and national motorcycle safety organizations,

may adopt to provide validated rider safety training programs in the

state.

(b) Sponsor and coordinate efforts aimed at increasing motorists'

awareness of motorcyclists.

(c) Sponsor research into effective communication techniques to

reach all highway users on matters of motorcyclist safety.



P.S. Before you go running your mouth off too much singing the praises of Californica, you should really do your homework.
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Old 04-19-2005, 09:14 PM   #46
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

clip--"Harley-Davidson would have a strong financial interest in putting sub-standard riders on the roads with you and me."



Oh please. If anything, H-D's interest is exactly the opposite. Well-trained customers will obviously be in their best financial interest, in the long run. I give Harley much more credit than you, both for smart business decisions and for ethics. (Already proven, by their great success in the marketplace.)
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Old 04-19-2005, 09:41 PM   #47
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

Conflict? What conflict? Why do you think its in H-D's interest to sell bikes to poorly qualified riders? That doesn't make any business sense whatsoever...
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:12 PM   #48
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

In Wisconsin you can get your DMV on the road test exempted by passing the MSF course. I took mine through a Harley Dealer. Of the 24 students in the class only 11 were granted the exemption. The class was more expensive at the dealership then at a local college, but they also offered a $100 gift certificate for students to buy safety gear in the store. Overall it was a good plan!
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Old 04-20-2005, 08:14 AM   #49
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

I wasn't aware of this practice of the Big 4. I agree it's highly irresponsible and a good target.



The difficulty I have with AB1189 is this: it takes a state-sactioned program and places it in the hands of a for-profit entity that has a financial interest in subverting that same state program. It just doesn't make sense to me.



I think it's great that manufacturers should train riders, and I think it would be fine if Ford or Toyota were to train drivers, but I wouldn't want these manufacturers to also be handing out licenses.
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Old 04-21-2005, 06:18 AM   #50
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

Please please all you moronic little sheep, thinking that H-D is the greatest thing ever. The most deaths are coming from Harley riders. Period end of story. Cannot be disputed.
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