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Old 04-18-2005, 10:04 PM   #21
mghempel
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Default Re: H-D snuggling up to MSF in California

Team Oregon is one of the few training programs that refuses to follow the MSF's dumbing down of the training program, and the MSF is using legal means to try to force Team Oregon to follow the MSF lead. As I mentioned earlier, check out the stuff that Motorcycle Consumer News has been writing lately about rider training and the way that the MSF has been behaving.

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Old 04-19-2005, 03:10 AM   #22
longride
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

I will do anything to keep the "Evil Empire" away from the motorcycling community and prevent them from selling more motorcycles. How dare they offer training. It's a plot I tell ya, formed to corrupt and control. They should shift the whole operation over to Honda, where it will be received warmly, and with great appreciation, coming from a company that has nothing but our best interests at heart. I'll take this to the Supreme Court if I have to! I have not yet begun to fight!
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Old 04-19-2005, 03:51 AM   #23
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

Though I have often had fun teasing the HDers out there, I really can't fault the logic, from Harley's point of view, of offering rider training. It reminds me of Sea World, where every ride/attraction empties out through a gift shop. Yeah, I know that I am a marketing sucker, but maybe I really want a cool, stuffed Orca and this is as good a place as any...boils down to self control and self responsibility.



Having said that, I would like to see mandatory state run motorcycle saftey and riders training. Something strong and meaningful. As a culture we have always sucked at this. What was the part of your regular drivers test that everyone "feared"? For my generation, it was the parralel parking portion. OOooohhh, so many have been injured or died in parking accidents! Whew!



What would HD have to say if Yamaha ran the drivers/rider training?



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Old 04-19-2005, 04:43 AM   #24
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

It has been my experience, in 30 years of riding, that HD has a history of putting sub-standard riders on the roads. This would just codify the action.
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

Maybe the Big4 could offer basic sportbike training and offer stuffed Squids at the end?
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:06 AM   #26
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

I took the Rider's Edge Course in Miami, with my girlfriend three years back, and took an MSF course a few years before that in Massachussetts. They were pretty much the same, as far as the basic content. In Miami, Peterson's, the sponsoring H-D dealer, subcontracts the course to MTII, the same people that give the MSF course. I thought that the Rider's Edge Course was well run, and the Blasts are more fun than the Honda Nighthawks. If Harley can keep the MSF format, and use Subcontractors, I do not see a problem. Harley is trying to grow the Sport, and that is not exactly a bad idea. My questions are, why are none of the other manufacturers doing this? Why does Honda not offer Rentals? Why do most salespersons try to talk beginners into more powerful bikes, where they often get hurt? Why are there almost no beginner bikes in stock, or basic riding gear displayed, at many dealers? It is funny thinking of H-D as a place to go, if you are a beginner, but it is the way to go, if you are trying to reduce the average age of your riders, which Harley is trying to do. And the Blast is a good Beginner Bike, I bought one for my girlfriend, and was very impressed, and I have been riding over 25 years and 70,000 miles. Another example is the new Sportster, which I have not ridden, but has become more popular and docile than ever. [I used to own two of the older models, and vibration limited my rides to about 45 minutes]. I personally am not pro or con on Harley, I love motorcycles. But I do not think that having more available training, or having a Harley dealer/salesperson suggest it, is exactly a bad idea. Maybe more people will take the training, because of it! California just has to require that Harley meet the same Specifications, as the State Licensed Schools, or whatever set of parameters, they wish to set. And David Hough's "Street Strategies" book, should be required reading, also! [I give that book away to all of my new-riding friends].
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:07 AM   #27
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

I've got no problems with it. Any training is better than none. Sometimes not much. My first training classes were Experienced Riders MSF Courses at Fort Carson in '71 (required to ride a bike on post- I'd been riding almost four years then), then another at Fort Campbell in '81 (again required), then again at Fort Carson in '84 (yep, required). From the three I learned, well, something, I suppose. In '01 I got my wife to take a new riders MSF course here in Colorado - which, if one passes it, means you don't have to take the skills test. I watched and one could see she really learned some things. But, [with apologies to whoever said it first] "she was now clearly qualified to ride a 250 Honda around a parking lot."



Personally, I learned more from Jason Pridmore's S.T.A.R. school than I had in almost 40 years of riding and then I took Danny Walker's American Super Camp - and suddenly I kind of know what I'm doing on dirt. But I don't think Colorado would give me a license based on either one!
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Old 04-19-2005, 06:45 AM   #28
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

Yes, yes, and if we get past your heavy-handed sarcasm, we still have the conflict of interest.
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:43 AM   #29
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Default Re: Harley-Davidson pulling strings in California

>Another example is the new Sportster, which

>I have not ridden, but has become more

>popular and docile than ever.



Example of what exactly? Example of a bike that if it anything this bad was produced by the koreans and peddled for any half reasonable money, it would be a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r-e-d.



- cruiz-euro
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:19 AM   #30
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Default Training and Experience, you need to start somewhere

I got my first bike at 17 (1975), no training, only minibike experience. Two weeks later i'm in the hospital due to a woman running a red light, and me not knowing the basics. I've been riding ever since, and figured I was a pretty good rider until I went to a Buell track day. I learned more that day on proper braking, cornering techniques etc than I had in the previous 25 years of riding. It cost me $50 for a full day of learning how to ride on a track, but the rest of the "education" has changed the way I ride day to day.



My point? Everyone can learn something from training, and it should be mandatory that any new rider takes a training course. I think it would be great if all riders could take the same course that the bike cops get.



When my son wanted to buy a bike he went through a course that taught him the basics which is all they can do. When we were riding together a deer jumped out and though I was ahead of him on my decrepit old harley I stopped 20feet before my son on his cbr. My point? Experience! You gotta have it.



When I lived in Australia (Queensland) 1981-83 they had a graduated license system for bikes. I think the first year it was up to 250cc then the next year 750 and then unlimited. This forced new riders to learn how to ride, and made it impossible to buy a street missle and go out and kill yourself just because you had the money to buy the bike. They also had a great probationary driver license system which is another story.



Harley or any other manufacturer who puts on a course is looking out for the sport and their "business" as has been mentioned before, because it makes good business sense.



Take a look at the BMW driving schools that are now becoming popular. You spend 60k on a car you don't really know how to drive. Kind of a waste. Spend the $500 on the course and now you're a better driver as well as being able to enjoy your car more.



If anyone thinks that no driving school would put out substandard drivers check out the story about Delta driving school in Calgary, Alberta (my home). They seem to have put out about 110 class 1 (semi) drivers onto our Canadadian roads with licenses that were bought. It's a scary thought. (The truth behind the story is that Pakistani, Indian, Arab immigrants had a network with a doctor, and a driving school that gave them licenses without proper training but our politically correct journalists won't mention race or religion when reporting). Any drivers ed course needs to be monitored by either the gov't or an independent entity to make sure that proper standards are met.





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