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Haru · 01-10-2001, 01:16 AM

emmissions regulations forced Porsche to give up air cooled engines. The flat-six engines had been developed to produce enormous amounts of power reliably, but they could not go much further with cleaner emmissions. With the switch to water cooling, a host of other benefits are also reaped. It was inevitable that Harley would have to go to liquid cooling in order to stave off tightening emmsions laws.

That said, I hold no hopes. Harley will stay loyal to its heritage of making shoddily built, underengineered, poor performing and handling rattle traps.

WartHog · 01-10-2001, 01:31 AM

Great - another fluid for Harleys to leak!

Just kidding!

I may actually have to welcome their new bikes into the last century if they actually build them. The idea of a Harley with enough power to get out of its own way is intriguing.

I won't trade my V-Max for one though, as I don't think they'll be that fast. Also, I imagine they'll not be cheap, either.

WartHog

fullthrottle · 01-10-2001, 03:46 AM

I wonder if Hawgs will become even more expensive in the near future (if that's possible). Isn't all this design effort with a foreign company going to cost them (Harley) a lot of money?

NickdaBrick · 01-10-2001, 04:00 AM

I conjecture that the Harley water-cooled mill is being developed to compete with the Honda 1800, which will out-power every current cruiser.

I sure hope the real bike is better-looking than the test mule, though. It's uglier than the south end of a north-bound buffalo.

CYCLE_MONKEY · 01-10-2001, 04:05 AM

This should be interesting. Another poster remarked "how are the die-hards gonna feel about Harleys being produced by the Germans?" How indeed. There is a big difference between foreign PARTS on a Harley, vs a foreign ENGINE. Porsche was forced into water cooling in order to extract more power from their engines, in order to be more competitive in the sports car market. Harley is under no such pressure, not being marketed as a performance brand. Is it strictly an emission (noise and exhaust) thing? Hmmm. Personally, I think the faithful will hate a water cooled Harley, for the same reason "New" Coke flopped. Also, I think it would be a big mistake to try and beat Ducati, Aprillia, et al at their own game. Look at how competitive the VR1000 ISN'T. If, by some miracle it is competitive, it will be because Porsche did ALL the engineering. Personally, I think a better choice for an engineering partnership would have been BMW. Unlike Porsche, they HAVE experience with the handling dynamics (engine cg,/placement) unique to motorcycles. We'll see....

CYCLE_MONKEY · 01-10-2001, 04:07 AM

Wow! A REAL tough-guy. Keep up the good work.....

CYCLE_MONKEY · 01-10-2001, 04:14 AM

Well, you know what they say about "oil and water don't mix". Wonder what the puddle underneath will look like? The oil puddle will probably form on one side, refusing to have anything to do with the foriegn "water", but it'll look good doing it, while the water will probably form a puddle much faster on the other side, turning up it's nose the the old-tech "oil", and evaporate outta there swiftly.......

ducatirdr · 01-10-2001, 04:30 AM

I don't like the direction the HD is going. I don't like balanced motors in HarleyÂ’s. The water-cooled bike might just was well be a joint partnership with Honda.

I understand that this is the price of progress to meet EPA guidelines.

I think the rubber mount is a good compromise. It shakes when it should and smoothes out on the highway. I like a lot of feedback from my bikes. All of mine are twins that make a lot of noise and shudder at idle and under hard throttle. They are alive. IÂ’m thinking about de-chroming my RK, painting it in camouflage and squirting some oil around on the engine to catch some dirt.

Ducati 996

HD RK

79 Bonni (in pieces since last years frame off, soon to be a hard tail bobber)

draz · 01-10-2001, 04:33 AM

I would love to see Harley build a real sportbike to compete with the rest of the world. But I can't see it being competitive in the slightest way if they are going to base it on the same motor used in their cruiser line up. Look at the size of that monstrosity in the test mule! Are you kidding me? That engine alone must weigh more than an R6!

However, if Harley is serious and develops an engine from the ground up to compete in AMA and WSB racing, it will be worth taking note of. And they should! 1999 net income was $267 million. I think they have a little extra cash to spend on R&D for new products.

Just try and fit the airbox on the inside of the motorcycle this time...

fullthrottle · 01-10-2001, 04:47 AM

Is that true, that the H20-cooling is more of an EPA issue? If it's only a sportster performance goal, then I'm not as put off by it, since I prefer Dynas and Softtails. But if they will be REQUIRED to go to water-cooled for all bikes at some point, now that is a different story. Do you remember where you read/heard that? How do you think I could find out more about it?

01-10-2001, 01:16 AM	#1
Haru Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 154	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion emmissions regulations forced Porsche to give up air cooled engines. The flat-six engines had been developed to produce enormous amounts of power reliably, but they could not go much further with cleaner emmissions. With the switch to water cooling, a host of other benefits are also reaped. It was inevitable that Harley would have to go to liquid cooling in order to stave off tightening emmsions laws. That said, I hold no hopes. Harley will stay loyal to its heritage of making shoddily built, underengineered, poor performing and handling rattle traps.

01-10-2001, 01:31 AM	#2
WartHog Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion Great - another fluid for Harleys to leak! Just kidding! I may actually have to welcome their new bikes into the last century if they actually build them. The idea of a Harley with enough power to get out of its own way is intriguing. I won't trade my V-Max for one though, as I don't think they'll be that fast. Also, I imagine they'll not be cheap, either. WartHog

01-10-2001, 03:46 AM	#3
fullthrottle Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion I wonder if Hawgs will become even more expensive in the near future (if that's possible). Isn't all this design effort with a foreign company going to cost them (Harley) a lot of money?

01-10-2001, 04:00 AM	#4
NickdaBrick Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 214	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion I conjecture that the Harley water-cooled mill is being developed to compete with the Honda 1800, which will out-power every current cruiser. I sure hope the real bike is better-looking than the test mule, though. It's uglier than the south end of a north-bound buffalo.

01-10-2001, 04:05 AM	#5
CYCLE_MONKEY Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 154	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion This should be interesting. Another poster remarked "how are the die-hards gonna feel about Harleys being produced by the Germans?" How indeed. There is a big difference between foreign PARTS on a Harley, vs a foreign ENGINE. Porsche was forced into water cooling in order to extract more power from their engines, in order to be more competitive in the sports car market. Harley is under no such pressure, not being marketed as a performance brand. Is it strictly an emission (noise and exhaust) thing? Hmmm. Personally, I think the faithful will hate a water cooled Harley, for the same reason "New" Coke flopped. Also, I think it would be a big mistake to try and beat Ducati, Aprillia, et al at their own game. Look at how competitive the VR1000 ISN'T. If, by some miracle it is competitive, it will be because Porsche did ALL the engineering. Personally, I think a better choice for an engineering partnership would have been BMW. Unlike Porsche, they HAVE experience with the handling dynamics (engine cg,/placement) unique to motorcycles. We'll see....

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01-10-2001, 04:07 AM	#6
CYCLE_MONKEY Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 154	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion Wow! A REAL tough-guy. Keep up the good work.....

01-10-2001, 04:14 AM	#7
CYCLE_MONKEY Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 154	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion Well, you know what they say about "oil and water don't mix". Wonder what the puddle underneath will look like? The oil puddle will probably form on one side, refusing to have anything to do with the foriegn "water", but it'll look good doing it, while the water will probably form a puddle much faster on the other side, turning up it's nose the the old-tech "oil", and evaporate outta there swiftly.......

01-10-2001, 04:30 AM	#8
ducatirdr Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 128	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion I don't like the direction the HD is going. I don't like balanced motors in HarleyÂ’s. The water-cooled bike might just was well be a joint partnership with Honda. I understand that this is the price of progress to meet EPA guidelines. I think the rubber mount is a good compromise. It shakes when it should and smoothes out on the highway. I like a lot of feedback from my bikes. All of mine are twins that make a lot of noise and shudder at idle and under hard throttle. They are alive. IÂ’m thinking about de-chroming my RK, painting it in camouflage and squirting some oil around on the engine to catch some dirt. Ducati 996 HD RK 79 Bonni (in pieces since last years frame off, soon to be a hard tail bobber)

01-10-2001, 04:33 AM	#9
draz Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 21	a real harley sportbike I would love to see Harley build a real sportbike to compete with the rest of the world. But I can't see it being competitive in the slightest way if they are going to base it on the same motor used in their cruiser line up. Look at the size of that monstrosity in the test mule! Are you kidding me? That engine alone must weigh more than an R6! However, if Harley is serious and develops an engine from the ground up to compete in AMA and WSB racing, it will be worth taking note of. And they should! 1999 net income was $267 million. I think they have a little extra cash to spend on R&D for new products. Just try and fit the airbox on the inside of the motorcycle this time...

01-10-2001, 04:47 AM	#10
fullthrottle Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2	Re: Water-Cooled Harley Discussion Is that true, that the H20-cooling is more of an EPA issue? If it's only a sportster performance goal, then I'm not as put off by it, since I prefer Dynas and Softtails. But if they will be REQUIRED to go to water-cooled for all bikes at some point, now that is a different story. Do you remember where you read/heard that? How do you think I could find out more about it?