Go Back   Motorcycle Forum > Motorcycle.Com General Discussion > Motorcycle News > Old News > Harley-Davidson News

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-18-2008, 09:57 AM   #21
longride
Super Duper Mod Man

 
longride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Anywhere they let me
Posts: 10,479
Default

"And what is the solution?"

I have a two-fold solution, but most Americans won't want to hear it. I am not speaking to Browning specifically here, but I'm speaking to the typical 'American'. It's funny that you mention the two Detroits, one north and one south. Which one would you want to work for? North of course, right? But then as an American consumer, you refuse to pay one cent more to buy an American product over a foreign one, so on one hand you want the maximum amount of pay and benefits for the job you do, and then you shop at Wal-Mart to get the cheapest Chinese crap ever made to save a few bucks. You see, we 'Americans' are quite the hypocrite between what we want for ourselves and what we want for others. There lies the problem. So the solution? First, try to buy an American product over an import even if it costs you more. That way you will support the same people that like to get paid a living wage like yourself, and in turn they would support you. Next, demand the same excellence from yourself in your work that you demand from others. If everyone does a top-notch job at what they do, support the products made here, and don't get greedy along the way, it works out for everyone. How do you think the Japanese did it? Just like that. The funny part is people used to think like this 40 years ago. They certainly don't now. Look at how many people root for Harley and the Big 3 to go under. Then when eveything shyts the bed, they all want to point a finger. For the vast majority, they can point at the mirror.
__________________
I'm a knucklehead
longride is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links Remove Advertisements
Motorcycle Forum
Advertisement
Old 11-18-2008, 09:57 AM   #22
longride
Super Duper Mod Man

 
longride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Anywhere they let me
Posts: 10,479
Default

from what I understand, they can ask the court to terminate the contract. Even if they get it terminiated, the Union will still strike them under in short order. Chapter 11 is not a sure-fire way to void Union contracts. I don't think blaming the union contracts for 100% of the auto industry problems is fair. There is plenty of blame to go around.
__________________
I'm a knucklehead

Last edited by longride : 11-18-2008 at 10:18 AM.
longride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2008, 10:12 AM   #23
12er
Founding Member
 
12er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SF
Posts: 2,801
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by seruzawa View Post
I think this:

Heh heh. Buz is so dumb that he's soliciting MOrons for investment advice.

I say this:

Great idea Buz. Send me a check for $100,000 and I will get you HD stock at a special double secret discount. Don't delay. Send it today.
No, not the comfy sofa!
12er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2008, 10:18 AM   #24
Kenneth_Moore
Registered Member
 
Kenneth_Moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: VIsiting the GIft Shop in the Pit of DIspair
Posts: 7,118
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrowningBAR View Post
And what is the solution?

Did you know that UAW workers get 96% of their wages paid for TWO YEARS AFTER they get laidoff? All paid for by the auto company.
Here's a couple of ideas:

-If China puts a 30% surcharge on every product we want to sell there, let's do the same to them. The prices will become a lot more competitive. It will also allow us to open markets there like we did in Europe; where we sell both finished goods as well as raw materials. Right now, we ship China raw materials and buy back finished goods. It's the very definition of being a colony.

-Corporate taxes? I'd say let's start by removing the tax incentives that make it desireable to send jobs overseas. Besides, a well-managed corporation rarely pays taxes, they find ways to re-invest their profits in new products, plants, capital projects, etc. When there are corporations making windfall taxes like Exxon-Mobil's $11-14 BILLION a quarter, let's see if maybe they can squeek by on, say, $5 billion. It's not like they're investing in new energy sources, according to their own spokesman at the Congressional hearings. Teddy Roosevelt was a great example of how goverment can manage corporate abuse by going after monopolies and price fixers.

-LongRide has it right: buy American. Remember when Sam Walton was still running WalMart? Remember all those signs all over the store about how WalMart sought out US products at the best prices? I'd pay an extra %10 for a US product, and I'll bet a lot of people would. He's also right, we all need to work hard and do the best job we can, every day. Those people in the 3rd world are, albeit under the whip (figuratively).

Dump or completely re-vamp the stock market. I worked for 2 companies that went from private to public. In both cases, all long-term strategies went right out the window so we could meet EPS and EBITA numbers for the Street. Before going public, if we had a bad quarter, we kept doing what we knew was the right thing and the next quarter or two things got better. Now the companies will dump key employees, close plants, do anything they have to so they can make those Street numbers. Why? The management bonuses are keyed to stock performance. Frankly, I think the modern stock markets have done more to destroy our basic infrastructure and ability to produce in the long term than any other single force.

PS: I'm no economist, I just see what goes on around me and connect the dots.
__________________
www.kennethmoore.org
Kenneth_Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2008, 10:35 AM   #25
acecycleins
Founding Member
 
acecycleins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 4,129
Default

I'm not asking for a superior product for the same or less money. I'm asking for an equal product. You can't expect people to fork out money for a product that is inferior to it's foreign competition. That's why Walmart thrives and Sears struggles. If you were paid based on your actual value of worth to production your pay (in the UAWs case) would substantially decrease. You're place in the workforce is then re-cast in a way to parity those around you doing similar jobs. That ability to equalize pay based off of pure performance will intice the worker to strive for better products (more sought after products) in an effort to increase their pay based on said performance. If you produce something of great value to the consumer you will find a marketplace. If you produce unreliable, substandard products you should not only expect to be paid less than your competition, but you should fear that your job (i hate that term because it's your employers job not yours) is in jeopardy. Fear of termination is a great motivator for job security. It's not the unions place to determine your value to your employer.
__________________
"Slack" - a state of being in which everything flows smoothly.....a frame of mind so at ease that the universe naturally cooperates.
acecycleins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2008, 10:47 AM   #26
Buzglyd
Founding Member
 
Buzglyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,904
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
Here's a couple of ideas:


-Corporate taxes? I'd say let's start by removing the tax incentives that make it desireable to send jobs overseas. Besides, a well-managed corporation rarely pays taxes, they find ways to re-invest their profits in new products, plants, capital projects, etc. When there are corporations making windfall taxes like Exxon-Mobil's $11-14 BILLION a quarter, let's see if maybe they can squeek by on, say, $5 billion. It's not like they're investing in new energy sources, according to their own spokesman at the Congressional hearings. Teddy Roosevelt was a great example of how goverment can manage corporate abuse by going after monopolies and price fixers.

-

dots.
Ken, it's not tax incentives that make companies move overseas, it's tax penalties. Our tax structure in this country is a huge burden.

Who cares how much Exxon makes? It's a public company. You can buy stock in it. Exxon doesn't have to invest in alternative energy sources anymore than Starbucks has to sell cheeseburgers. Exxon is an oil company.

If alternative energy is such a sure fire winner, let all the rich libs and hollywood celebs form a company and clean up.

I've never been a "buy american" kind of guy. The American automakers produced a bunch of crap and had horrible union contracts on top of it. I can't support any of that with my dollars.

Toyota, Honda, BMW and Mercedes all employ Americans at good wages and aren't looking for a bailout right now.
Buzglyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2008, 10:51 AM   #27
seruzawa
The Toad

 
seruzawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: 8501 ft.
Posts: 17,461
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
Here's a couple of ideas:

-If China puts a 30% surcharge on every product we want to sell there, let's do the same to them. The prices will become a lot more competitive. It will also allow us to open markets there like we did in Europe; where we sell both finished goods as well as raw materials. Right now, we ship China raw materials and buy back finished goods. It's the very definition of being a colony.

-Corporate taxes? I'd say let's start by removing the tax incentives that make it desireable to send jobs overseas. Besides, a well-managed corporation rarely pays taxes, they find ways to re-invest their profits in new products, plants, capital projects, etc. When there are corporations making windfall taxes like Exxon-Mobil's $11-14 BILLION a quarter, let's see if maybe they can squeek by on, say, $5 billion. It's not like they're investing in new energy sources, according to their own spokesman at the Congressional hearings. Teddy Roosevelt was a great example of how goverment can manage corporate abuse by going after monopolies and price fixers.

-LongRide has it right: buy American. Remember when Sam Walton was still running WalMart? Remember all those signs all over the store about how WalMart sought out US products at the best prices? I'd pay an extra %10 for a US product, and I'll bet a lot of people would. He's also right, we all need to work hard and do the best job we can, every day. Those people in the 3rd world are, albeit under the whip (figuratively).

Dump or completely re-vamp the stock market. I worked for 2 companies that went from private to public. In both cases, all long-term strategies went right out the window so we could meet EPS and EBITA numbers for the Street. Before going public, if we had a bad quarter, we kept doing what we knew was the right thing and the next quarter or two things got better. Now the companies will dump key employees, close plants, do anything they have to so they can make those Street numbers. Why? The management bonuses are keyed to stock performance. Frankly, I think the modern stock markets have done more to destroy our basic infrastructure and ability to produce in the long term than any other single force.

PS: I'm no economist, I just see what goes on around me and connect the dots.
You have good ideas because your mind hasn't been screwed up with what laughingly is called an economics education. Economists have all sorts of unworkable theories, usually invented by academics who have never held a real job or run a company. They over-think things and thereby come up with loonie ideas like bailing out huge incompetent companies.

The idea of only applying the tariffs to other countries that they apply to us is a basic libertarian concept, btw. See how France would like a 100% tariff on their wines. How about requiring that Japanese cars be dismantled and inspected before they can be sold? Better yet only allow Japan to export as many bikes to the USA as they allow to be imported from the USA to Japan. That would be only a few thousand motorcycles per year.

Most Americans would be appalled to see just how unfair trade is between the USA and virtually every other country on earth. One begins to suspect that our worst enemies are our govt officials who agree to such inequities. But then it's not surprising seeing as how many elected officials and bureaucrats go to work for foreign companies once they retire.
__________________
"Make no mistake, Communism lost a big argument - one we know today as the 20th century."
seruzawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2008, 10:51 AM   #28
longride
Super Duper Mod Man

 
longride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Anywhere they let me
Posts: 10,479
Default

"The American automakers produced a bunch of crap and had horrible union contracts on top of it."

It isn't 1972 Buz. You sound like the guys that still claim Harleys leak oil and shed parts. I doubt you would work for those 'good wages' those other companies offer.
__________________
I'm a knucklehead
longride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2008, 11:05 AM   #29
BrowningBAR
Snuggles

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In a really, really, really old farmhouse
Posts: 4,369
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by longride View Post
"The American automakers produced a bunch of crap and had horrible union contracts on top of it."

It isn't 1972 Buz. You sound like the guys that still claim Harleys leak oil and shed parts. I doubt you would work for those 'good wages' those other companies offer.
From a marketing standpoint they do. GM rate poorly in reliability with models that miss out on a bunch of markets. Ford rates highly in reliability, but suffers with a stale model line. Both pulled out way too late in the SUV market.
BrowningBAR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2008, 11:08 AM   #30
Kenneth_Moore
Registered Member
 
Kenneth_Moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: VIsiting the GIft Shop in the Pit of DIspair
Posts: 7,118
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by longride View Post
from what I understand, they can ask the court to terminate the contract. Even if they get it terminiated, the Union will still strike them under in short order. Chapter 11 is not a sure-fire way to void Union contracts. I don't think blaming the union contracts for 100% of the auto industry problems is fair. There is plenty of blame to go around.
I can't stand it, I keep agreeing with LR. I hear a lot about the evil unions and their crushing contracts for retirement and health care. BULLSH|T! Those deals were made in good faith with concessions on both sides. The manufacturers could easily afford them. Then the management decided to make bad, short term decisions that undercut their ability to meet their obligations.

If I sign a deal with you to provide a service, whatever that might me, and you pay me for it, if I go spend all the money you gave me on bad investments and crack *****s, it's not my fault. You still owe me that benefit/money/service. You should have put the $$ away and planned to pay it all along.
__________________
www.kennethmoore.org
Kenneth_Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off