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Old 10-16-2002, 06:20 AM   #21
Mooner
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Default 3 cylinders

Maybe I'm completly ignorant (I'd like to think not) but if twins can wallop fours in WSB and AMA, why can't triples wax quintuples. I understand the whole more H.P. because of higher rpms, less rotating mass etc., but isn't it about useable power more than ultimate power. I guess we'll all find out next year......

-Andy

p.s. Go Colin!
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Old 10-16-2002, 06:45 AM   #22
rsheidler
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Default Re: It's a good decision.

Exactly!



I think this has the potential to be much like F1 6-7 years ago -- when reigning world champ Michael Schumacher signed with Ferrari, which had not won a F1 race in years. Lots of commentators thought that was a terrible career move, and Michael did not immediately turn things around, but there was dramatic improvement pretty quickly, and look at how dominant that team is now -- to the point that I don't bother to even watch the races unless I have nothing else to do.



There are a lot of parallels -- Ferrarri was much more cutting edge than the more conservative, proven technology of the Bennetons and others who WERE winning, but they were held back by drivers who were not able to get the performance out of the car, or to help develop its potential.



Ferrarri, also like Aprilia, is/was a company for which GP racing is not just a marketing project, but instead is its core. While Aprilia certainly do not have the deep pockets of a Honda or Yamaha, they also do not have their attention distracted by the need to sell cars, lawn mowers and generators as well as run a race organization.



Anyone who doubts Aprilia's ability to beat Honda and Yamaha at their own game needs to watch the 125 and 250 GPs.
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Old 10-16-2002, 06:48 AM   #23
santambrogio
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Default Re: Edwards to Aprilia?

The Aprilia triple, like the ex Petronas, has a lor of F1 tech. These motors make the most power but rely on elctronic management such as traction control to make usable power.



Aprilia has to do a lot development work to use this in MotoGP.
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Old 10-16-2002, 07:06 AM   #24
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Default Re: It's a good decision.

Not to say Aprilia won't improve their chassis and engine ridability, but don't expect Honda, Yamaha, and the others to be waiting for them. As you probably already know, it has been widely reported that Moto GP engines are capable of producing more power than the tires can handle. Maybe the rest of the teams realized that, and opted for more ridable engine characteristics instead of trying to win the dyno competition. It is significantly easier to develop more HP than it is to improve ridability. I would guess the other teams are just waiting on the tires before they play all their horsepower cards.



BTW, Colin should be on Nicky's GP ride! He's earned it.
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Old 10-16-2002, 07:10 AM   #25
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Default Re: Edwards to Aprilia?

All good points. I hope that you are right. It is hard to believe anyone would have a big leg up on Honda in terms of engine tech. Honda left F1 partially because nobody could compete with them (are they back in F1 now?).



I certainly hope that V5 is not the only way to go. The purpose (for me as an engineer/rider) of GP racing is to improve the technology of streetbikes. And if V5 is the only way to go, they won't be much more relevant than the 2 smokes.
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Old 10-16-2002, 07:12 AM   #26
rsheidler
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Default Re: 3 cylinders

>>twins can wallop fours in WSB and AMA<<



Of course there is the little matter of the 33% displacement advantage that the twins have had for the past few years (1000 vs 750 cc).



The rules in MotoGP do contain some handicap provisions for different numbers of cylinders -- more cylinders = higher minimum weight limits.



As current state of the art (eg Formula 1) power/displacement standards would yield possible power outputs well beyond what current tires (not to mention chassis and suspension) can handle, nobody is focused on getting maximum power at this time.



In my opinion, Honda has chosen a fairly conservative path, which is often the most successful, at least in the short run. They chose a 5 rather than 4 cylinder because the weight limits are the same for both. The higher minimum weight limit just means that they did not need to do anything radical to get the weight down to near limits, which let them focus on developing known technology rather than having to explore new technology. Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki have apparently chosen similar paths -- basically bikes that are not all that different from what they have done with superbikes -- just without the compromises that street riding imposes on the designs.



Aprilia (and Ducati) have taken more ambitious approaches, using more F1 technology and straying further from their comfort zones. This will likely mean longer developement cycles, but also offers more possibility.
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Old 10-16-2002, 07:36 AM   #27
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Default Re: Edwards to Aprilia?

>>Honda left F1 partially because nobody could compete with them (are they back in F1 now?). <<



While Honda certainly has had some success in F1 in the past, I don't remember that they were ever so dominant that nobody could compete with them, or that that was the reason they left.



They have been back in F1 recently, but F1 has not stood still during their absense, and their recent success has been underwhelming to say the least.



Currently, Ferrarri, BMW and Mercedes (actually Illmore) seem to have the edge in motors, although it is not clear to what extent this is pure motor technology vs traction control etc. Much as in MotoGP, the name of the game is getting the power to the track rather than peak power.



I am not clear what is your point re v5 configurations being irrelevant to the street -- it seems to me that the Honda RCV could easily spin off a street version soon. The RCV with lights shown as Suzuka looked like all it needed was mirrors and turn signals to be street-ready.



My understanding of the intent of MotoGP was to encourage manufacturers to push the envelope. My complaint with the Honda approach (ditto Yamaha etc) is that they have basically built Superbikes, just without the compromises dictated by production and DOT requirements.
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Old 10-16-2002, 10:06 AM   #28
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Default Re: It's a good decision.

Excellent Post, I learn a lot each time you post.

Thanks.
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Old 10-16-2002, 10:22 AM   #29
Mooner
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Default Re: 3 cylinders

Well, you busted me on that one. I realized I had overlooked that "tiny" displacement factor right after I posted, but figured I'd just wait till somebody caught me. Not suprised it didn't take long on a board like this. But, when the fours jump to 1K will that necesarily mean the twins will become the dinosaurs that the 750's have become? It would be a shame to see Ducati's completly redesigned superbike outdated so soon. Are weight restrictions enough to level the playing field? I'll stop now with my ignorant rambling thoughts...
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Old 10-16-2002, 10:50 AM   #30
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Default Re: 3 cylinders

Right now, I'd say that Ducati and Honda V2s would still whupp up on 1000cc 4s -- witness lap times in AMA Superbike vs Formula Extreme. Of course, there is little or no factory support (read "unobtanium" parts) in Formula Extreme at this time (looks like this could change for 2003 though), and as close as EBoz kept the AMA Superbike championship with 750cc, comparable development done on a 1000 could change that picture.



Looks like the factory teams that could settle this once and for all have all elected to sit it out on the sidelines (both AMA and WSB), leaving Superbike to the big twins, plus privateers on last year's 750s (bored to 800 per the new AMA rules just realeased yesterday) or on privately tuned/developed 1000s (with tougher restrictions).
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