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schizuki 10-12-2004 09:04 PM

Re: Prove it K-Y
>"Real, actual testing says

>otherwise. " Prove it Capt K-Y

Uhhh, look about five posts up.

Your combination of stubborness and stupidity is truly sublime.

schizuki 10-12-2004 09:32 PM

What a joke
So Buell gets 4th place. Big deal. The idea of that agricultural lump of an engine racing against superior l/c inline-fours is pathetic.

Please, Erik, get rid of that lump and put in a proper high-performance l/c engine. I need a high-revving high-horsepower bike for the street so I can blast 150 mph down straight roads. I need a radiator, water pump, thermostat and lines so I can extract every single horsepower for the street.

What I don't need is a torquey motor with low-end grunt, hydraulic valves I don't need to adjust, a maintenance-free cooling system (air) and a belt drive.

Don't get me wrong, your chassis is OK, but handling is overrated. I want POWER!

In short, I don't want a low maintenance engine with a street-oriented powerband. What kind of loser does? Give me racetrack performance that will impress everyone at Starbucks. Build a bike like that, and it will find a place in my garage next to the H2 Hummer that I commute to work with.

kiwi_steve 10-12-2004 10:04 PM

Re: Disposable?
If only H-D's were truly disposable then we'd see less of the things wheezing as they haul there lardy asses for VR1000 racers comments - I wonder if he cooks over a a wood-fired stove, bathes in a cast iron bath, washes his clothes with a wash-board and dries them with a mangle, and sits on his porch blowing into a jug when he wants some music or entertainment....The point is that ancient agricultural technology is less 'disposable' purely through the fact it's been around unchanged for so long and the 'support' is there due to the unreliability and inefficiency inherent in old designs. Steam trains weren't very disposable either but I wouldn't want to travel on one if I wanted to get anywhere quickly, cleanly or efficiently! Lets face the facts and admit that the H-D range, Buell included, is powered by a range of overweight dinosaur tractor engines that are great for those to whom nostalgia, image and travelling slowly and noisily matter, but they will never ever be a match for anything the japs build - or the europeans for that matter, with the exception of Royal Enfield whose ancient designs are from the same era of thinking as H-D's! Now if Buell were to put a KTM, Ducati, Honda, Suzuki or even Yamaha V-Twin in their brilliant frame they may have a bike that could be taken seriously and may be capable of beating the others on the track, or even finishing on the podium, without the ridiculous parochial advantage they enjoy now. Now if you want a real street-bike then forget your asthmatic Buells and get a KTM 990 Superduke!

kiwi_steve 10-13-2004 01:34 AM

actual testing
The Federation Motocycliste Du Quebec carried out the 'Task analysis for intensive braking of a motorcycle in a straight line' in January 2004 using an '01 Honda CBR929RR Fireblade and a '99 GL1500 Valkyrie and found that "in terms of braking performance there was no significant difference between them" with the 'blade stopping from 100kph in 41.67 metres average over 214 stops, and the Valkyrie 41.83 metres over 84 stops. So it is wrong to assert that cruisers have superior braking performance to sportbikes. With regard to accident avoidance, acceleration and the ability to change direction rapidly are just as important, and a sportbike is obviously vastly superior in this regard (simple physics of power:weight ratio and mass centralisation). As for the use of cruiser type bikes by police forces, this is due to the equipment that the bike must carry which is bulky and heavy and also the low centre of gravity that makes a cruiser more stable at walking pace.

SRMark 10-13-2004 02:24 AM

Re: Buell XB-9R 4th in AMA FX
I might not want to race one but I'd not mind riding one. Paint it black, the engine too and polish off the cooling fins. More of a sport touring seating position too. Thanks.

VR1000racer 10-13-2004 02:38 AM

Re: Disposable Kiwi-Steve's comments
Dear Kiwi-Steve:

No I don't normally cook over a wood fired stove, unless it is a campfire at the lake with my kids, (although to be honest, we usually use the kitchen on our boat.)

I haven't taken a bath in years. I prefer a shower, unless you want to count the nightly beer in the hot tub on the bedroom deck.

And our housekeeper does the laundry, in a washing machine, no less!

And for entertainment, we have a 6 acre go-cart track out back for the kids, and while I am 6'6" and 230 lbs, I do enjoy the go-carts.

For music, I usually forsake blowin' the 'shine jug for Toby Keith, George Strait, and of course, Stepenwolf.

As for the "Unreliability and inefficency" inherent in "old" designs, we shall address that issue.

First, let us not forget that while the Buell XL displaces 1203 cc, it's BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) or the actual measure of how efficient an engine actually is, has a BSFC that is substantially better than any of the 4 valve water cooled bikes, of similar or smaller displacements, when the obvious thinking would suggest the smaller engine would be more effiecient.

The Buells, and Harleys, typically return fuel economy in steady state riding, in the 55 - 65 mpg range, with measured BSFC in the .35 - 43 Lbs per hour per hp.

The VTR 1000, TL1000, Duc 999, all return in the mid to upper 30's per gallon of fuel in the same steady state riding, and on the dyno, will measure a BSFC, or amount of fuel used to produce each horsepower of between .46 - .55 Lbs per hour.

The Buell/HD engine is more efficient, primarily due to a better combustion chamber shape. The 4 Valve bikes typically produce more HP simply through higher revs. If you compare the Buell to any of the other bikes on the dyno at the same RPM, the Buell will be ahead, due to displacement.

the 4 valve motors benefits come into play at low valve openings, and the frequency of those events. (How high it rev's) and 4 small valves are easier to control at high revs than 2 larger ones, and they present more valve perimeter area, which gives higher flow at low lifts.

And by the way, a Buell engine with "ported" stock heads is capable of flowing about 250 cfm on the intake side, and about 230 cfm on the exhaust side. A TL1000R will flow about 210 CFM on intake side, and about 190 on the exhaust side. Yes, a good 2 valve will outflow a good 4 valve of the same bore size. If you think I am BSing you, make a few calls.

keep in mind though, that the PEAK airflow numbers are not what it's about, but the average airflow through the engine, which is from valve opening to valve close, and the initial lift area is what is important. That fact is what makes 4 valve motors more effective at higher RPMs. They have a higher average airflow through the engine, because airflow(HP) is a function of total flow times RPM.

HP is a poor measure of the efficiency of an engine, BSFC is the proper measure of how efficient an engine is.

Also, as for the unrelaible Buell/HD, I know of many examples of HDs & Buells that have a LOT of miles on them, a lot in excess of 100,000 miles without major maintenance.

The reliablity issue was a valid one in 1981, for everyone, Japs and Italians included. reliability is pretty much a moot issue for all bike companies in this day and age.

And lastly, let us not forget that your beloved Ducatis, (that would be the 4 valve water cooled Desmodromic kind) were given weight and displacement advantages by every sanctioning body in the world for 16 years, when racing against the mulit-cylinder bikes. Said weight and displacement advantages were not eliminated until 2002.

Did we forget the 1000cc 4 valve twins vs. the 750cc multi-cylinder bikes?

did we forget the weight advantage of 50 lbs less than the milti-cylinder bikes in the begining?

When we make passionate claims about "unrelaible and inefficient" bikes that would be "taken seriously" if we put a KTM engine in it, we should be sure that we know of what we speak.

(Also, that KTM you refer to would be the same KTM that copied the 1996 Buell Lightning rear design Exactly for it's Duke in 1997!)

As for the HD/Buell range being powered by an overweight dinosaur tractor engine, that are slow, noisy and will never be a match for anything the Japs or Europeans build, keep in mind that Buell built more Firebolts last year than Honda did of VTR1000s, CBR1000s, CBR600s, Ducati 999's etc, and they all met the same emmisions and noise standards.

We don't even have to include Sportsters in that mix to see who wins the numbers game.

Sorry to throw the facts into the fray.



PS- I don't think I have had this much fun wasting time before work in a long time!

christian_gates 10-13-2004 03:11 AM

Re: These are non-technical American V-Twin bigots you are dealing with
I suppose I should have added even more qualification and mentioned "displacement limited, multi-lap, closed course road racing".

The race version of the XB-9R does not have a 900cc motor. It's substantially larger, although whether in bore or stroke I don't know - I estimated the size based on page 21 of the AMA rule book (specifies 850 - 1350cc for air-cooled twins). I recall reading about the engine displacement being north of 1.2 litres somewhere (forgotten the source now).

I'm not anti-American V-2, either. I just would like to see an American motorcycle racing motor of some kind that is actually designed from the ground up for racing, not a heavily modified left-over engineering effort. Twin cylinders have been proven to be inferior in racing for top-end power, but a liquid-cooled V2 might make sense.


lcarlson 10-13-2004 03:12 AM

Re: Disposable Kiwi-Steve's comments
Nicely put --

christian_gates 10-13-2004 03:15 AM

Re: Disposable Kiwi-Steve's comments
That's some interesting data. Keep it coming.


Buzglyd 10-13-2004 03:51 AM

Burger Barn Bust
Okay, so I rode my Harley down to the Burger Barn last night. I was afraid to ride my Ducati or MV Agusta because they're kinda junky now.

I memorized your above statement and was ready to kick some ass. I found the same dork who's there every week. He rides a 2001 Ninja 600 which he claims is the pinnacle of motorcycling. I repeated your above statement and he pulled a bunch of magazines out of his tankbag and screamed, "Mine makes more horsepower!"

I challenged him to a race and took off on my Geezer Glide. I had him well behind me in the first set of corners but a long straight was coming up and I knew his superior hp would take over. And of course we know that straightaways are where truly skillful riders are measured.

Well, right when he started to pass a handful of parts fell off my geezer glide, puncturing his front tire and sending him into a pasture of defacating bulls. It was pretty clear by his reaction that he'd been there before.

He got on his cell phone, called his momma and she brought his dad's old pickup and took him home.

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